Eh - Not Sure Where To Begin.

[BlueRose]

I suppose it's best I begin with an introduction. I don't want to come on here and just start hammering out questions or starting debate without at least saying hello.

I am probably what you'd call a "former Catholic." In fact, I used to peruse this site quite a bit as a teen, back before it started looking fancy, and even before dUSt started calling us creepy aliens. I was really into my faith. At around 19 I began attending a non-denominational church with some friends because it offered a College Group that my own church did not. I'd been an active member of my High School Youth Group for nearly the whole 4 years and so I was glad to have found another place with lots of new peers to worship God. Eventually, I began to like these new ideas of worship, and the issues I'd always had about the Catholic faith really nagged at me. In time, I quit going to Mass and started going to Service at my new church. I stayed involved there, and felt that I'd found a way to really connect with God. I was asked to be a group leader for our Wednesday meets. I took part in a Mission Trip to travel to Russia to help some folks in a really poor town who needed supplies and love. I felt I was a strong Christian; I loved God, loved my faith, and could not fathom believing otherwise. I was twenty.

I'm now twenty-two, and refuse to claim any religion. The path that brought me this way is a longer, more complicated story, and I'll save it for another time. We'll just say that it was a slow process, but thus far seems to be irreversible. I've had some typical "mean, hypocrite Christians/Catholic" experiences. I hear that every church has people like that, but this is just one factor in my rejection of the Christian faith. I've spent most of the last two years being angry and full of questions, but until now have been too bitter to seek them out. I don't believe in God. To me, rationally, it's not something I can wrap my head around. It feels too much like a fairytale that people tell themselves to sleep better at night, and yet I've still tried to get myself to believe in him in the last two years -- to no avail.

I'm on here because I can see past my pride now, but I'll say straight out that I have no delusions about being some sort of Prodigal Son (or, erm... daughter, in my case). But I have a great deal of questions that have been nagging at me, and I'm finally at a point where I am not too stubborn to ask. My goal here is to, at the very least, get a better understanding of the Catholic faith, even if I stay right where I'm at in regards to God and all that.

I am very straightforward, and my questions are somewhat argumentative. I want to start out by letting people know that I'm not trying to be rude, condescending, or intentionally argumentative. I feel that I will learn best by (respectfully, and minus insults or attacks) saying directly what's on my mind, and particularly if it sparks debate. I mean, if you're able to show me that I'm wrong, or provide an answer to a puzzle I've been picking at, that would be awesome. Clearly a part of me still wishes I could believe. My problem is that I simply can't.

Also, another tid-bit about me? I'm rarely concise. :]

My first question to you all is: Would anybody on here be willing to humor me in this educational endeavor??

[Archaeology cat]

Welcome! I, for one, am willing to converse with you about whatever questions you might have, though I admit I'm not a theologian. I was raised Southern Baptist, then joined a Methodist church during college, then became Catholic a year after graduating from college. But I'll do my best to answer anything.

[Deb]

I think everyone here would be willing to help you find answers to your questions. If we don't know, we can direct you to places where you can find out.

I was raised Catholic, left the church at age 16 and was led back by the Lord at the age of 51. I was confirmed this Easter. As a new convert, I do tend to be zealous, but only because I am filled with such love and gratitude for being given such a precious gift.

I will pray that the Lord will open your heart and your mind to his truths once again.

[Lord Philip]

Hello BlueRose,

I have to say I admire your honesty with yourself, and also your ability to get past hurt feelings. Some people hold on to bitterness and resentment their entire lives without being able to step back and examine their premises. This will really get you far in life.

I don't want to make this about me, but I am a very recent convert to the Catholic Church from Evangelical/Fundamentalist Protestantism (much like the the church you started going to in college). Perhaps later on, when the discussion moves more into matters that are unique to the Catholic Church with respect to other Christian communities, I can share some of my thoughts with you in that regard.

But we have a more fundamental discussion before us: the existence of God. I think probably 99% of the most religious people have moments in their lives where they feel like there is no God. I am pretty sure even Mother Theresa had moments like this.

Let me get into that a little more, from a personal side. When I was younger, I felt like all the zealous, mindless people were religious and all the intelligent, scientific people were atheists. That made me VERY uncomfortable. I felt like the idea of God was irrational. In spite of this, I held on to my faith because I wasn't sure God didn't exist, and felt I had nothing to lose in believing in him. Many others, though, who reach this stage choose to abandon religion altogether.

After getting a little older and doing a lot of reading I found to my astonishment that the zealos idiots versus the smart scientists was not at all an accurate reflection of religion vs. atheism. I could get into the lists of great minds in history who were deeply religious, but I would prefer to get into the reasons they gave for their belief in God.

In order to believe in a philosphy, Chesterton says, we can't believe in something which explains only a small part of reality. We have to believe in something which explains all of reality. I hope to show that a Universe with God makes sense, and a Universe without God does not. I will do this with several arguments. Happily, I realized that these arguments really ring true with common sense.

Argument 1. When we observe the universe, we see that everything that exists in it has a cause. I, for instance, do not "just exist". I exist because I was caused by my parents. Stars in the sky do not "just exist", they were caused by matter in the universe slowly concentrating itself by gravitational forces until there was enough matter to begin nuclear fusion. So if everything has a cause, that means the existence of everything is [i]contingent[/i] upon something else. Now it would not make sense for this chain of causes to go back in time to infinity (and the Big Bang theory does not leave any room for such a proposal). We therefore see that everything we can observe in the Universe has a cause. Nothing just "comes into being" or flashes into existence without some sort of cause. This means that the Universe itself must have a cause. We say that this is God.

Now in order for there to be anything that exists, there must be something which of its own nature exists. If there is nothing which exists by itself (an uncaused existence), then there can be no existence. Do you see how this works? If there is nothing which exists on its own (the uncaused cause), then that would mean there was a time where nothing existed. But if nothing existed, then nothing could ever come to be. Nothingness produces nothingness. So there must exist some entity which is uncaused and explains its own existence. We say that this is God.

This second part of the argument answers the illogical qustion, "Well who made God?!" We see from this argument that there must exist something which has no beginning, which has no cause. If this did not exist, then nothing would ever exist. Since we observe that we exist and that the Universe exists, then this "uncaused cause" must exist.

Here is a quick analogy: we come up to a train track with a train moving along it. We look to the right all the way to the horizon and all we see is cars moving along the track. We look to the left and all the way to the horizon all we see is cars moving along the track. The atheist marvels at how the cars move themselves. The theist says that there must be an engine too far off to see which is pulling the cars along the track. The atheist laughs and asks, "Well what is pulling the engine?!" The theist shakes his head and explains that the engine, of its own nature, pulls itself and all the cars on the track.

Okay...next argument. We as human beings observe that there are things which are really and truly good and which are really and truly bad. The holocaust, for existence, was really and truly a bad thing (it is not an illusion that it was a bad thing). Feeding the poor is really and truly a good thing.

Now, if atheism is true, then we human beings are nothing more than a complex formation of chemicals. Hence, as merely chemicals, there is no inherent "worth" to what we are. Therefore, it logically follows that nature is completely indifferent between a world where everyone is prosperous and happy and a world in which everyone slowly and painfully roasts over hot coals. In both instances, chemicals are just moving about in complex formations.

Do you see how this argument is not saying that atheists are bad people? I personally know atheists who are wodnerful people. But we are not commenting on the personal morality of atheists; we are pointing out that an atheistic worldview has no room whatsoever for absolute morals.

Atheists say that morals are constructed by society. Well, the Nazis were a society and they constructed a moral system which involved killing Jews. The atheist can have nothing to say about that. The theist, on the other hand, can say that these things are absolutely (ontologically) wrong. That right and wrong are real things and that even a society can be wrong about what it believes to be good and bad.

The third argument, for me, is the absolute nail in the coffin for the atheistic worldview. As I mentioned before, in an atheistic worldview we are nothing more than a complex formation of chemicals. This means that our minds are caused entirely by chemical reactions in our brain. Now, is there anything in a chemical reaction which is true [i]about[/i] another thing? Of course not! The very suggestion is absurd. Does a chemical reaction here on earth have anything to do with what stars are really like? No way.

So this begs the question: what on earth makes us think that our minds have anything to do with the reality that exists outside them? Remember, it is absurd to think that a chemical reaction can be about any real thing outside itself. So our minds, the mere products of chemical reactions, cannot be supposed to have anything to do with external reality. This worldview demolishes all science, all philosophy, all knowldge...period.

I have had atheists respond to me about scientific research which is showing more and more about how the brain works. But don't you see...that is circular reasoning. They are using their own brains to try any figure out whether the brain works. They are assuming the answer to their inquiry before they conduct it. This is the most elementary of logical fallacies.

The theist says that the mind is not merely a set of chemical reactions (but that they indeed do have a part in the process). The mind has an element to it which is supernatural; it therefore makes sense to investigate the Universe and to claim to have knowledge. Therefore science, philosophy and knowledge are not mere illusions, but are in fact real. The irony in all this is that in order to truly believe in science, one must believe in the ability of the mind to comprehend reality, and in order to believe that the mind can comprehend reality, one must believe in the supernatural. So the real scientist is a supernaturalist!

Whew! This post has gotten quite long, and I think I will leave it off, for now. I would be very interested to hear some of your responses, and to know if you have ever heard these arguments before.

God bless you and keep in touch!

Sincerely

Philip

[BlueRose]

Thank you for humoring me, then. I think "argumentative" may be the wrong term for what I'm aiming for. I just have questions that pile upon other questions, and layers of doubt that I'm going to put out there until they are answered. I understand that many of you are just fellow Catholics and not theologians. This is actually very helpful for me, as I want to get a broad perspective on the faith. After all, the church IS the people, is it not? If it comes down to it, I will certainly seek guidance from my former parish's priest if I greatly need theological information. But for now, this is a MUCH better resource for me, as I am able to organize and articulate my thoughts a hundred times better in text than I am able to in person.

My first issue is with Prayer. This is something I've had a very hard time understanding. To me, it seems like a contradictory practice and I have a hard time grasping why it's done, or why it's so important. For example: you have an ailing Grandfather. Naturally, you ask people to pray for him. People pray to aid his suffering, but he still suffers. Kids pray that he doesn't die, but sadly, he does. When this happens, it is "part of God's plan". However, if he had made a miraculous recovery, it is "a miracle." It appears that when you ask for something (help, comfort, salvation) and it comes true, we should thank God for this - but that when it doesn't happen, it's part of God's plan. If he HAS a plan already set, and seems to act according to that plan regardless of what we pray, why do we bother to pray?

Furthermore, there are things in the world he doesn't affect or change, like starvation, genocide, and so on. But if he does not intervene in those things for the sake of maintaining Free Will, why would he bother to lend some random person "strength" in a difficult situation, or, better yet, take time out of his day to make a statue cry or some such?

[BlueRose]

[quote name='Lord Philip' post='1595128' date='Jul 8 2008, 02:00 PM']Hello BlueRose,

....


God bless you and keep in touch!

Sincerely

Philip[/quote]

Thanks for taking all that time to write that! There are a few things I want to talk about, but since I've already started dialogue on my Prayer issue, I'll touch upon this later. :]

[rkwright]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595137' date='Jul 8 2008, 12:08 PM']Thank you for humoring me, then. I think "argumentative" may be the wrong term for what I'm aiming for. I just have questions that pile upon other questions, and layers of doubt that I'm going to put out there until they are answered. I understand that many of you are just fellow Catholics and not theologians. This is actually very helpful for me, as I want to get a broad perspective on the faith. After all, the church IS the people, is it not? If it comes down to it, I will certainly seek guidance from my former parish's priest if I greatly need theological information. But for now, this is a MUCH better resource for me, as I am able to organize and articulate my thoughts a hundred times better in text than I am able to in person.

My first issue is with Prayer. This is something I've had a very hard time understanding. To me, it seems like a contradictory practice and I have a hard time grasping why it's done, or why it's so important. For example: you have an ailing Grandfather. Naturally, you ask people to pray for him. People pray to aid his suffering, but he still suffers. Kids pray that he doesn't die, but sadly, he does. When this happens, it is "part of God's plan". However, if he had made a miraculous recovery, it is "a miracle." It appears that when you ask for something (help, comfort, salvation) and it comes true, we should thank God for this - but that when it doesn't happen, it's part of God's plan. If he HAS a plan already set, and seems to act according to that plan regardless of what we pray, why do we bother to pray?

Furthermore, there are things in the world he doesn't affect or change, like starvation, genocide, and so on. But if he does not intervene in those things for the sake of maintaining Free Will, why would he bother to lend some random person "strength" in a difficult situation, or, better yet, take time out of his day to make a statue cry or some such?[/quote]

I think people who view prayer in this way will end up disappointed. To many people prayer is only about asking for things; even if its asking for things for others. But true prayer, or at least what I understand prayer to be, is more than just petitions. If we look at the mass, the whole mass is a prayer, in fact it is the highest prayer. Yet there are only brief moments when we ask for things; and most of those times we are asking for mercy. Prayer, again to me, is about being with God. I like to use the definition 'practicing the presence of God'. A lot of people say its like talking with your good friend, and indeed if you have a 'personal relationship' with Jesus prayer can be more this way. When I talk to my friends I do more than just asking them what I need. I spend time with them.

Part of prayer, of getting to know God, is getting to know what God wants. This means that sometimes its 'thy will be done' and we have to understand it. I think you're right to say that even a miracle is still part of God's plan. God did not suddenly hear a prayer and change His mind and decide to heal someone. God knew all along what was best, and in some cases it be best for x to happen and some y.

Think of Jesus. Jesus Himself, along with all of his followers (probably) prayed that Jesus would not be killed. Yet God knew something bigger was at stake here; the salvation of all. Out of the worst possible thing, killing the savior of the world, God brings the salvation of the world.

So your other question still remains, if its all in God's plan why bother praying. For me, its four reasons. First, God tells us to pray and how to pray. Second, if I truly wish to have a personal relationship with God, I need to get to know Him. Third, to understand God's will. Listening in prayer is tough; I see it more as trying to understand why God is doing what He is doing so that I may know God and myself better and bring myself closer to God. Fourth, God does want to know our intentions. Just as I want to know what my friends want, God wants to know what we desire. How many times do parents ask their kids what they want, only they know they can't give it to them?

Hope this helps.

[BlueRose]

[b]I thought of another facet to my Prayer Question.[/b]

Often, people ask if they can pray for you - or people ask you to pray for them or their families, for their safety in travel, for their healing, for all kinds of things. But if God is going to simply follow through with his plan, aren't these prayers also basically pointless?

...And if he knows everything, isn't he already aware of what you want for yourself or others anyway? Wanting us to pray just for the sake of making us say what is in our hearts seems a little... controlling... to me. Am I missing something?

[picchick]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595137' date='Jul 8 2008, 01:08 PM']My first issue is with Prayer. This is something I've had a very hard time understanding. To me, it seems like a contradictory practice and I have a hard time grasping why it's done, or why it's so important. For example: you have an ailing Grandfather. Naturally, you ask people to pray for him. People pray to aid his suffering, but he still suffers. Kids pray that he doesn't die, but sadly, he does. When this happens, it is "part of God's plan". However, if he had made a miraculous recovery, it is "a miracle." It appears that when you ask for something (help, comfort, salvation) and it comes true, we should thank God for this - but that when it doesn't happen, it's part of God's plan. If he HAS a plan already set, and seems to act according to that plan regardless of what we pray, why do we bother to pray?

Furthermore, there are things in the world he doesn't affect or change, like starvation, genocide, and so on. But if he does not intervene in those things for the sake of maintaining Free Will, why would he bother to lend some random person "strength" in a difficult situation, or, better yet, take time out of his day to make a statue cry or some such?[/quote]


Prayer is my thing Prayer has really been difficult in the past for me. I knew that I NEEDED to pray. I never understood why though. As I grew older understanding became a little more clearer. Now I cannot live without praying.

Prayer is our conversation with God. God is just like one of our friends. We need to talk to him like we talk to our friends. Even if it is to say hey what's up? I uderstand that there are things our prayer needs: Intercession, Adoration, Thanksgiving, Praise. However, if we think of prayer more as a conversation with God and less about the formalities it comes easier. And yes, even though God knows our every move, I still tell Him about my day.

Prayer always has answers from God. Sometimes they are not the ones we expect. But they always get anwered. When God gives us a "no", it is not just a "no" but it is a "no, I have something better for you."

In reference to your example, God does answer the prayer. Part of God's plan is an answer just as much as a miracle. In other words...a miracle is not a change in God's plan but a part of God's plan. If the grandfather were to recover miraculously it would still be part of God's plan just as much as the grandfather dying. When we pray for someone dying, at least how I look at it, we not only pray for their suffering to be relieved but for God and his angel to comfort the dying and the family around the dying person. However, suffering is a part of life. Everyone must go through it. Sometimes the saints went through horrible sufferings before their death despite numerous prayers said for them. We pray for the person to have strength not to despair during their sufferings and we pray for those around the person that they do not loose faith and hope. We also pray that God may swiftly take the person to the joys of heaven.

Although things that happen are a part of God's plan, we must come to realize that it is part of God's plan. For some this is easy. For others it is hard. For me, I do not know what God's plan is for me in my future. I know that it is there but my future is blank in my eyes. I pray to know what God wants me to do. We can do something that is not of God's Will. As an example, people sin.

I have seen God's hand in a lot of horrible situations. He doesn't seem to do grand scale lightening bolts. I have seen it in on a smaler scale: the abortion clinic closing in my city (even though PP decided to set up here), strength in situations when I was ready to give up, friends coming around...et. al. Do I pray for an end to genocide, abortion, starvation et. al.? Yes, I sometimes become frustrated at the fact that nothing seems to change. I too am confused as to why God allows this to happen. But you are right, it has to do with Free Will. I am quite sure that God is either crying or angry up there in heaven at what we are doing to others. However, it is different than asking God to help a friend in a difficult situation. God may not change the situation the friend is going through but He can give that person the grace to go through it without losing faith.

Some of the things you ask are very hard to answer. Some things just need to be taken on faith. This is hard, I know. I have struggled in the past on it. I do not know why God bothers to perform miracles when people are hurting around the world. Perhaps it is to give hope to those who are despairing at the thoughts of all that is going on. Making statues cry is not messing with Free Wil.

I hope that this helps without causing more confusion.
Meg

[picchick]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595194' date='Jul 8 2008, 02:05 PM'][b]I thought of another facet to my Prayer Question.[/b]

Often, people ask if they can pray for you - or people ask you to pray for them or their families, for their safety in travel, for their healing, for all kinds of things. But if God is going to simply follow through with his plan, aren't these prayers also basically pointless?

...And if he knows everything, isn't he already aware of what you want for yourself or others anyway? Wanting us to pray just for the sake of making us say what is in our hearts seems a little... controlling... to me. Am I missing something?[/quote]

These are not pointless because it is beseeching God for help. God's Plan is not always easy to follow especially when there are so many temptations in the world. By beseeching God for help, we do not ask for it to change but rather for the grace to get through it.

Do you remember Jesus's prayer? "Lord take this cup away from me if there is another way." Then the angel came and handed Jesus a cup. Even Jesus's prayer could not be answered the way that Jesus may of expected it to be answered. However, there is no doubt that Jesus gained strength from God the Father through that prayer.

We cannot live a lone. We are connected in some way by being part of the Body of Christ. When your right hand is hurt what do you do? You compensate with your left. When a person is blind, the person's hearing becomes more acute. The same goes for us, when we have encountered a situation that is difficult we ask others to help us pray for strength.

Meg

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595194' date='Jul 8 2008, 12:05 PM'][b]I thought of another facet to my Prayer Question.[/b]

Often, people ask if they can pray for you - or people ask you to pray for them or their families, for their safety in travel, for their healing, for all kinds of things. But if God is going to simply follow through with his plan, aren't these prayers also basically pointless?

...And if he knows everything, isn't he already aware of what you want for yourself or others anyway? Wanting us to pray just for the sake of making us say what is in our hearts seems a little... controlling... to me. Am I missing something?[/quote]

BlueRose,

This is the epistemological element of the effects of prayer, and it is not a simple matter because we are talking about things like eternity, predestination, and the motives of God. All three are topics that could take a lifetime to begin to talk about.

But I am not going to shrink away from this, because I think there is an element to your model which is missing. I am totally borrowing from C.S. Lewis at this point (if you have not read C.S. Lewis, you really must....if you are interested and you promise to read it, I will buy you one of his books. I am serious...PM me and I will send it over to you) because he addresses this very point in one of his books.

Okay, so we have a person praying to God for healing. God's plan, however, is going to occur and the contents of that person's prayer are not going to change God's mind. So what is the purpose of prayer?

This model leaves one thing out: the fact that the person praying is [i]also[/i] part of God's plan. There is no reason why in eternity past God could not have made the future prayer a part of the plan to perform the future healing (or non-healing).

Let's make this a little less metaphysical and deal with a bit of a story which, while it did not technically occur, it shows the truth of the matter:

God is in heaven and is about to create the world. He is working out in his mind the entire history of the planet. He determines things will occur in a certain way, but he also hears billions of prayers for specific ends. There is no reason why he cannot shape the events of the universe in accordance with the future prayers of people. Your little prayer for your grandfather's healing, for all you know, could have in ages past been the deciding vote as to what the outcome would eventually become.

The problem you bring forth is that the outcome of a sickness is already a part of the "way things are." But your prayer is equally a part of the "way things are," and so is not barred from having a real effect in the real world.

So what I am essentially saying is that your model of things takes God outside of time, but only partially. He is outside of time (in your model) with respect to the healing, but not outside of time with respect to your prayer. My model completes what yours leaves out. God is completely outside time, and so my prayers can therefore have an effect without the messy details of "changing God's mind" (which does not occur).

Does that help?

God bless,

Philip

[mortify]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1594797' date='Jul 8 2008, 02:29 AM']My first question to you all is: Would anybody on here be willing to humor me in this educational endeavor??[/quote]

Sure

[mortify]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595137' date='Jul 8 2008, 12:08 PM']If he HAS a plan already set, and seems to act according to that plan regardless of what we pray, why do we bother to pray?[/quote]

You ask an interesting question and my simple answer is based on a quick glance through the Catechism. I'm going to take this as an opportunity for my own understanding to develop, so what I say now may need some clarification later. I think the first thing to mention is that if our prayer is not answered it's not necessarily because it's not part of God's plan. It may be because our request is not beneficial to us, so for example St Monica prayed that her son, Augustine, not travel to Italy. Yet God did not answer her prayer because it would be during his stay in Italy that he would return to the Faith. On the other hand, we may be requesting something that is not harmful but we none the less don't deserve our prayer to be answered. We may not be praying with the necessary devotion, perseverance, or reliance on God. In other words, it may be our very own imperfections that inhibit the fulfillment of a certain request. The important thing however is that prayer is *never* wasted, not even in the case of a staunch sinner not getting their petition fulfilled. The reason is when we pray we grow closer to God, much like when the earth get's closer to the sun it warms, and so when a person grows closer to the Son of Justice He warms their heart with grace. In time, the the grace will soften the person's heart and make a conversion possible. So yes, pray, pray, and pray some more!

[BlueRose]

I think I get it so far, now just have a lot to take in and consider.

Further questions:

To quote [b]picchick[/b]: [i]God may not change the situation the friend is going through but He can give that person the grace to go through it without losing faith.[/i]

So why would God not bestow his grace upon that person to begin with? Being that he is omni-benevolent, I would think that he would give his grace to that friend anyway. If what you say is true about a friend needing to pray for his friend to have grace bestowed upon him, then it seems like an awful lot is put into the hands of the people and for me, that's a LOT of pressure!

My real struggle with prayer began a few years ago. I suffer from a sleep disorder known as Sleep Paralysis. This varies for each person, but essentially you become conscious when the rest of your mind and body is at rest, making you feel paralyzed (among other things.) Sufferers also may experience (as I did) the sensation that they cannot breathe, or will hallucinate that their nightmare foe(s) is/are with them in the room. Part of their brain is awake and fully aware of their surroundings (the bed, the sheets) but the dreaming part of the brain is still putting out images. In my case, those hallucinations were monsters and demons. This happened nearly every night. I prayed for God to spare me, help me, strengthen me, comfort me, teach me to deal with it, carry me through, help me wake up, watch over me, on and on.. and nothing ever changed. My peers and religious friends told me that I must be praying for the wrong thing. That pretty much brought me to tears. I cannot express how horrid those experiences were, and to discover that apparently things wouldn't get better until I "figured out" what to pray for.

In response to [b]LordPhilip[/b]: If God has everything mapped out so definitely, knew everything before it happened from the very start, had a period where he considered man's history to the smallest element and considered the prayers-to-be in the whole thing, doesn't that still mean that everything is technically pre-destined? Am I not supposed to have Free Will, or control, over my choices? And furthermore, what about "the butterfly effect." God tweaks one tiny thing in his plan - lets say it rains in Chicago on a day where it would have been sunny - and everything changes thereafter. I don't know how that is possible, or even worth figuring out. (Is God just THAT bored?)

[Lord Philip]

[quote name='BlueRose' post='1595388' date='Jul 8 2008, 04:48 PM']I think I get it so far, now just have a lot to take in and consider.

Further questions:

To quote [b]picchick[/b]: [i]God may not change the situation the friend is going through but He can give that person the grace to go through it without losing faith.[/i]

So why would God not bestow his grace upon that person to begin with? Being that he is omni-benevolent, I would think that he would give his grace to that friend anyway. If what you say is true about a friend needing to pray for his friend to have grace bestowed upon him, then it seems like an awful lot is put into the hands of the people and for me, that's a LOT of pressure!

My real struggle with prayer began a few years ago. I suffer from a sleep disorder known as Sleep Paralysis. This varies for each person, but essentially you become conscious when the rest of your mind and body is at rest, making you feel paralyzed (among other things.) Sufferers also may experience (as I did) the sensation that they cannot breathe, or will hallucinate that their nightmare foe(s) is/are with them in the room. Part of their brain is awake and fully aware of their surroundings (the bed, the sheets) but the dreaming part of the brain is still putting out images. In my case, those hallucinations were monsters and demons. This happened nearly every night. I prayed for God to spare me, help me, strengthen me, comfort me, teach me to deal with it, carry me through, help me wake up, watch over me, on and on.. and nothing ever changed. My peers and religious friends told me that I must be praying for the wrong thing. That pretty much brought me to tears. I cannot express how horrid those experiences were, and to discover that apparently things wouldn't get better until I "figured out" what to pray for.

In response to [b]LordPhilip[/b]: If God has everything mapped out so definitely, knew everything before it happened from the very start, had a period where he considered man's history to the smallest element and considered the prayers-to-be in the whole thing, doesn't that still mean that everything is technically pre-destined? Am I not supposed to have Free Will, or control, over my choices? And furthermore, what about "the butterfly effect." God tweaks one tiny thing in his plan - lets say it rains in Chicago on a day where it would have been sunny - and everything changes thereafter. I don't know how that is possible, or even worth figuring out. (Is God just THAT bored?)[/quote]

BlueRose,

What a terrifying malady. My prayers are with you.

Now to address your response. I tried to make it clear that I was telling an anecdote which is simplifying great matters like predestination, free will, and the motives of God. I am not saying that God actually sat down on a great throne in heaven and planned out the whole history of the Universe. I do not think that at all.

In Catholic belief, there is such a thing as Divine Providence, but there is also such a thing as free will. If we wanted to make our story more complex to deal with these metaphysics more correctly, we would have to say that there was no "before" the Universe (since there is no other time series that we know of) in which God would plan anything. The whole of time is always present to God. God "sees" the future, because it is present to him every bit as much as "now" is present to us. So this means God does not "foresee" anything...he just sees it.

As we pass through time, a part of us is lost to the past. There is also a part of us that is yet to be realized in our lives. But this is not true of God. He never loses part of his reality, nor is there any part of him that he is yet to realize. His existence, in this sense, is simple in its completeness.

So bringing this back to your question, this means that your free will is not impinged upon. God is not "forseeing" anything..he is just seeing it. Just as you would not feel that God watching your actions now is an impingement against your free will, you should not feel that God seeing your future actions is impinging upon it.

But I think your (perfectly legitimate) question was a bit of a tangent off of how this model addresses your problem with how prayer makes sense.

God, standing outside time and being able to act upon Creation, knows about your prayer and can weave in the answers to your prayer in a time that you would consider the past. This model could be used to describe any number of difficult objections that could be set up against the concept of prayer, and is now tweaked to handle some of the complexities of Divine Providence and Free Will.

There is no doubt about the fact that these are difficult matters, and they are hard to imagine, but they do make logical sense.

God bless,

Philip