The Crusades And The Ordo Militant

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1601561' date='Jul 16 2008, 10:31 PM']They also left behind some good poetry and philosophy. In college, when we studied the philosophical thought of the three monotheistic religions, there was a Muslim philosopher (whose name I'm blanking on right now) we read that was very good.

What I was curious about when I asked you that was regarding what original scientific contributions they left behind. You said they preserved the knowledge of the Greeks and Egyptians--I was interested to know of their original contributions. For example, I really love middle eastern music and I was recently in another forum trying to defend the great music that has come from the Muslim world and I was being told that I was wrong, that there was no original musical art form from the Muslim world, just whatever they absorbed from previous cultures they were inhabiting.[/quote]

If you are asking what the improvised then of course there are numerous scientific advances and the development of the numeral system.

If you are asking about some utterly unprecendented, totally origional, absolutly previously unknown invention you won't find much. You won't find much in the west either.

Even Darwinism has vague outlines in the Ionists.

As for your philosopher. If he was related to poetry that was likely Mawlānā Jalāl-ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī.

[Madame Vengier]

'Hassan'
[quote]If you are asking about some utterly unprecendented, totally origional, absolutly previously unknown invention you won't find much.[/quote]

That's exactly what I'm looking for.

[quote]You won't find much in the west either.[/quote]

That's a false statement of profound and stupifying proportions.

[quote]If you are asking what the improvised then of course there are numerous scientific advances and the development of the numeral system.[/quote]

I believe they "invented" the zero. Numbers were in existence well before there were Moors or Muslims of any sort. Humans have been adding, subtracting and multiplying for a very, very long time.

[quote]he was related to poetry that was likely Mawlānā Jalāl-ad-Dīn Muhammad Rūmī.[/quote]

No, I wasn't referring to Rumi. But I like him, too. It may have been Al-Farabi that I'm thinking of. It depends on the time period, because we studied Humanities in a cycle. Al-Farabi was from the medieval age.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1601751' date='Jul 17 2008, 05:17 AM']'Hassan'
That's exactly what I'm looking for.[/quote]

Then your out of luck. Even Frege's quantifier logic built on the Scholastics, and that was one of the most unprescidented discoveries in history

[quote]That's a false statement of profound and stupifying proportions.[/quote]

Give me five counterexamples examples


[quote]I believe they "invented" the zero.[/quote]

no

[quote]Numbers were in existence well before there were Moors or Muslims of any sort. Humans have been adding, subtracting and multiplying for a very, very long time.[/quote]

Yes however the Arabic numeral system is unique in it's utility.

There is a reason every mathematician on earth uses arabic numerals.

[quote]No, I wasn't referring to Rumi. But I like him, too. It may have been Al-Farabi that I'm thinking of. It depends on the time period, because we studied Humanities in a cycle. Al-Farabi was from the medieval age.[/quote]
holla

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1601948' date='Jul 17 2008, 01:00 PM']Then your out of luck. Even Frege's quantifier logic built on the Scholastics, and that was one of the most unprescidented discoveries in history
Give me five counterexamples examples
no
Yes however the Arabic numeral system is unique in it's utility.

There is a reason every mathematician on earth uses arabic numerals.
holla[/quote]

Muslims did not invent Arabic or anything related to Arabic.

Not going to reply to the other comments/questions which are--again--insulting to my intelligence.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1602353' date='Jul 17 2008, 09:08 PM']Muslims did not invent Arabic or anything related to Arabic.[/quote]

I never intended to claim they did. I said "Improvised" when I meant "improved" however I think the context makes it clear that I was not claiming they made any utterly origional discoveries.

They did help standardise Arabic like Luther with German

[quote]Not going to reply to the other comments/questions which are--again--insulting to my intelligence.[/quote]

How so?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1602353' date='Jul 17 2008, 09:08 PM']Muslims did not invent Arabic or anything related to Arabic.[/quote]

I never intended to claim they did. I said "Improvised" when I meant "improved" however I think the context makes it clear that I was not claiming they made any utterly origional discoveries.

They did help standardise Arabic like Luther with German

[quote]Not going to reply to the other comments/questions which are--again--insulting to my intelligence.[/quote]

How so?

[Madame Vengier]

Thanks then. You've answered my question. Muslims (re: the Islamic world) have contributed NOTHING [b]original[/b] to the world of science and medicine. That's what I was looking to find out and now I know.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1602611' date='Jul 18 2008, 07:45 AM']Thanks then. You've answered my question. Muslims (re: the Islamic world) have contributed NOTHING [b]original[/b] to the world of science and medicine. That's what I was looking to find out and now I know.[/quote]


No, I said they didn't make any utterly origional, unprecidented, totally out of the vacume discoveries.

And neither has the Western world.

no one has, as Mr. Nietzsche said, there is nothing really "new" under the sun

[Galloglasses]

Technically Jesus was New. The only guy to be hated when he lived, died, and is still hated 2000 years on, just for giving a beaver dam about people.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Galloglasses' post='1602804' date='Jul 18 2008, 02:36 PM']Technically Jesus was New. The only guy to be hated when he lived, died, and is still hated 2000 years on, just for giving a beaver dam about people.[/quote]


I think Hitchens and his lot are they only one's depraved enought to be so vulgar towards Jesus.

I don't know anyone else who hates him

[Galloglasses]

The Roman Empire up until Constantine, the Jewish Religious Elders, hostile Pagan tribes, some Greek Philosophers, (Low key philosophers who didn't make a big hit, such as the ones St.Paul met and spoke with while in Athens) Zoroastrians, every heretic who became a heretic because they don't seriously consider Jesus' Teachings as truth. Pretty much, everyone really, even Christians within the Church. Apparently alot of Athiest hate him too, (especially on the internet, whereas they usually don't believe in any religion or god and don't take any of them seriously, a large proportion of them are very hostile to Jesus for some reason), though thankfully not all, and this continued right on up from the day he began his ministry to today, and onwards. Also, The Age of 'Enlightenment' saw ALOT of Jesus Bashing, if not just Church Bashing.

Edited July 19, 2008 by Galloglasses

[CatherineM]

Hassan-I don't know about where you live. The last time I was in the Carolina's was 1982, but where I live and have lived, there are Jesus haters all over.

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1603021' date='Jul 18 2008, 09:40 PM']Hassan-I don't know about where you live. The last time I was in the Carolina's was 1982, but where I live and have lived, there are Jesus haters all over.[/quote]
No, I know people who mock him, I don't know anyone who hates him

[faithfulrock3r]

another fun fact that the historybooks always fail to mention: islamic armies had conquered 2/3rd's of the christian world prior to the first crusade. And yet somehow the crusaders are always portrayed as the aggressors.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1603021' date='Jul 18 2008, 09:40 PM']Hassan-I don't know about where you live. The last time I was in the Carolina's was 1982, but where I live and have lived, there are Jesus haters all over.[/quote]

I was born and raised in the Carolinas. I didn't run into very many Jesus-haters. But then again I was around a lot of southern Baptists.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='faithfulrock3r' post='1603184' date='Jul 19 2008, 12:35 AM']another fun fact that the historybooks always fail to mention: islamic armies had conquered 2/3rd's of the christian world prior to the first crusade. And yet somehow the crusaders are always portrayed as the aggressors.[/quote]

I know. It's like calling a rape-victim a murderer for killing her rapist in self-defense. Or calling a battered housewife a murderer for killing her abusive husband after being driven mad by years of his violent and humiliating behavior.

[Galloglasses]

[quote name='faithfulrock3r' post='1603184' date='Jul 19 2008, 01:35 AM']another fun fact that the historybooks always fail to mention: islamic armies had conquered 2/3rd's of the christian world prior to the first crusade. And yet somehow the crusaders are always portrayed as the aggressors.[/quote]
This is so true it isn't even funny.

Most of the them we look at history as if on a path, from the point we are, we look back at the point in the past where we were. We become very blind that way. Take a look at History from above and, well, ALOT more can be seen easily. From our perspective, the Lands Islam holds now have been Muslim for centuries. At the time the Crusades happened, the medieval man would've looked back and saw the times when these 'Muslim' Lands were Christian only one or two centuries prior.

Fun Fact, the Crusades was Europes Blow to the world of Islam that stopped Islamic Armies from conquering Europe. (Before the Reconquista), Its physcological effect was worth more then its physical. Islam believes that they are unbeatable because they are Muslim, (Don't misinterpret me here, by 'Muslim' I mean they believe they are invincible because they submit to Allah), Whereas Christians have accepted both the ill and good of the times that have affected them as the Will of God. Christian can accept failure in medieval times alot more then Muslims could have. So when the Crusades happened. Massive Christian Armies, conquering a VERY important place that is very close to Arabia, Islam's Homeland, was a really shocking thing to the collective Muslim world at a Point where they were Conquering Byzantium and solidifying their hold on the Iberian Penisula, even pushing up through Sicily. The fact that Muslim armies could've lost so much, so soon to an opposing force in such a Strong area gave Muslims severe pause for thaught. However you look at it, the Crusades is the reason we all aren't Muslim by now.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1600836' date='Jul 15 2008, 10:34 PM']The Moors certainly were ahead of the West in medicine and the sciences during the Crusade years.[/quote]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1601111' date='Jul 16 2008, 12:06 PM']How so? Inquiring minds want to know.[/quote]

Not sure who she was refering to as "the Moors," but here's a cursory list of medicine/science in the Middle East during the early centuries of Islam:

- discovered and successfully able to treat measles/smallpox (although they didn't have a clear understanding of teh cause)
- at a time when many Europeans saw medicine as evil, the medical field in teh Middle East was flourishing, even having areas of specialization within it (example: they used alcohol as an antiseptic hundreds of years before Western civilization)
- Arab and Persian doctors began writing medical guides, formed teaching hospitals, and authored medical journals that, centuries later, were used as the basis for European medical school curricula
- developed alchemy/chemistry as a scientific field to study and experiment with minerals, metals, dye, crystallization, varnishes, illuminating ink, etc; began classification system for minerals and substances
- ideas put forth in physics, optics, astronomy often predated "discoveries" by Europeans by three to six centuries
- invented algebra
- established latitude and longitude, and the length of a degree; studied the earth's axis (six centuries before Galileo)
- developed astronomy (even had observatories) and wrote tables used well into the Renaissance
- perfected the astrolabe and sextant (essential for navigation for centuries)
- invented the windmill; made advances in energy/heating/power - even came up with ways to make ice and sherbert available in teh hottest summers

Thus, until the 16th century, the Middle East really had the upper hand in medicine and the sciences. As we know, teh tables turned - Middle Eastern society turned in on itself, and Western society took off in leaps and bounds, building on a foundation of Greek/Arab/Persian/Hindu ideas.

Sorry, this is all i have time for, but i hope it helps.

Back to the Crusades...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='fides quarens intellectum' post='1603522' date='Jul 19 2008, 03:19 PM']Not sure who she was refering to as "the Moors," but here's a cursory list of medicine/science in the Middle East during the early centuries of Islam:

- discovered and successfully able to treat measles/smallpox (although they didn't have a clear understanding of teh cause)
- at a time when many Europeans saw medicine as evil, the medical field in teh Middle East was flourishing, even having areas of specialization within it (example: they used alcohol as an antiseptic hundreds of years before Western civilization)
- Arab and Persian doctors began writing medical guides, formed teaching hospitals, and authored medical journals that, centuries later, were used as the basis for European medical school curricula
- developed alchemy/chemistry as a scientific field to study and experiment with minerals, metals, dye, crystallization, varnishes, illuminating ink, etc; began classification system for minerals and substances
- ideas put forth in physics, optics, astronomy often predated "discoveries" by Europeans by three to six centuries
- invented algebra
- established latitude and longitude, and the length of a degree; studied the earth's axis (six centuries before Galileo)
- developed astronomy (even had observatories) and wrote tables used well into the Renaissance
- perfected the astrolabe and sextant (essential for navigation for centuries)
- invented the windmill; made advances in energy/heating/power - even came up with ways to make ice and sherbert available in teh hottest summers

Thus, until the 16th century, the Middle East really had the upper hand in medicine and the sciences. As we know, teh tables turned - Middle Eastern society turned in on itself, and Western society took off in leaps and bounds, building on a foundation of Greek/Arab/Persian/Hindu ideas.

Sorry, this is all i have time for, but i hope it helps.

Back to the Crusades...[/quote]


LOL, seriously I think you might want to review what the Chinese were doing a couple thousand years before the advent of Islam.

("Developed astronomy"?? The Chinese were into astronomy BEFORE THE BIRTH OF CHRIST.)

Also, "Persians and Arabs" are not necessarily Muslims. Persians and Arabs existed well before Islam.

[fides quarens intellectum]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1603607' date='Jul 19 2008, 07:53 PM']LOL, seriously I think you might want to review what the Chinese were doing a couple thousand years before the advent of Islam.

("Developed astronomy"?? The Chinese were into astronomy BEFORE THE BIRTH OF CHRIST.)

Also, "Persians and Arabs" are not necessarily Muslim. Persians and Arabs existed well before Islam.[/quote]


Sorry - i was responding to the following,

QUOTE(CatherineM @ Jul 15 2008, 10:34 PM)
The Moors certainly were ahead of the West in medicine and the sciences during the Crusade years.

QUOTE(Madame Vengier @ Jul 16 2008, 12:06 PM)
How so? Inquiring minds want to know.

i was responding in order to provide a few examples of how the Middle East was a bit "ahead of the West in medicine and sciences during the Crusade years." True, she did say "Moors," which actually denotes North African Arabs/Berbers specifically, but then, as many have applied the term loosely to Middle Eastern Muslims, i went ahead with the broader shared intellectual culture within the Middle East at that time.

Indeed, the Chinese had been "into" astronomy for some time, as had the Egyptians, Mayans, Greeks, Hindus... i am sure i am missing a few others. What i meant by "developed" was the way astronomy was developed as more of an applied science in the Middle East, being taught in universities with books and such, then applied in teh field using observatories, instruments, charts... Sorry for not being specific enough before.

Also, of course, we know that Persians and Arabs were not necessarily Muslim; there were pockets of Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians... But if you are looking at medicine and sciences between the rise of Islam and the Crusades, it was the Muslim schools and scholars who were driving education in the Middle East during that time. Yes, "Peoples of the book" were above the class of slaves, and thus enjoyed certain freedoms within the Umayyad and Abbasid dynasties, but it was the Muslims (Arab and non-Arab) who belonged to the top social strata, became the educated elite, ran the universities, courts, etc. Also, study of the sciences was an output of the faith at that time because of the way Islam was then stressing man as the link between God and nature. As a practical example, in order to make a Hajj, you needed to know astronomy and geography, so study of these sciences was a lived expression of your faith.

Hope this helps explain myself a bit better. God Bless.