The Emerging Three Party System In The U.s.

[LouisvilleFan]

Which means McCain's obeyed his sense of obligation in the past, so he's likely to do it again. Regardless of who we might be voting for, we all know it's gonna be either Obama or McCain who wins. Between those two, McCain at least gives you a chance at making pro-life progress. Even if I don't end up voting for him, I want McCain to win because if he doesn't, Obama wins.

Edited July 22, 2008 by LouisvilleFan

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605313' date='Jul 22 2008, 02:08 PM']Which means McCain's obeyed his sense of obligation in the past, so he's likely to do it again. Regardless of who we might be voting for, we all know it's gonna be either Obama or McCain who wins. Between those two, McCain at least gives you a chance at making pro-life progress. Even if I don't end up voting for him, I want McCain to win because if he doesn't, Obama wins.[/quote]
That's why I'll vote third party. Either Obama wins, with his terrible stance on life issues, or McSame wins, representing a continuation of the train wreck that is the Bush administration. BTW, McSame's "sense of obligation" is the same as every other politician's, IMHO, to wit: power.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1605849' date='Jul 23 2008, 09:37 AM']That's why I'll vote third party. Either Obama wins, with his terrible stance on life issues, or McSame wins, representing a continuation of the train wreck that is the Bush administration. BTW, McSame's "sense of obligation" is the same as every other politician's, IMHO, to wit: power.[/quote]

Yeah, I'm no idealist. I don't think McCain's approach to the war is the same as Bush's, but focusing on life issues, Bush has been one of our better presidents (maybe the best since Roe v. Wade) for promoting the sanctity of life. We already know, when it comes to pro-life concerns, McCain is not McSame. But fact of the matter is, Obama and McCain are good politicians because they are power-hungry weasels. Huckabee's early success shows that some voters are looking for character and strength, but those qualities rarely win out in the end.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1605849' date='Jul 23 2008, 08:37 AM']That's why I'll vote third party. Either Obama wins, with his terrible stance on life issues, or McSame wins, representing a continuation of the train wreck that is the Bush administration. BTW, McSame's "sense of obligation" is the same as every other politician's, IMHO, to wit: power.[/quote]

I don't understand why so many people think McCain is just more Bush. He's not. Socialized health care and illegal immigration are two issues they differ on. McCain is just more socialisitic than most Republicans, and is certainly not more Bush. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act (something Bush would have supported had he been a Senator), and voted to fund stem cell research. McCain is not like Bush, he is very much his own person, with his own agenda.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1605976' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:36 AM']I don't understand why so many people think McCain is just more Bush. He's not. Socialized health care and illegal immigration are two issues they differ on. McCain is just more socialisitic than most Republicans, and is certainly not more Bush. He also voted against the Defense of Marriage Act (something Bush would have supported had he been a Senator), and voted to fund stem cell research. McCain is not like Bush, he is very much his own person, with his own agenda.[/quote]
I disagree. On two key issues, THE two key issue, Iraq and the economy, McSame offers a continuation of Bush's policies, i.e. more of the same: more Iraq, more tax cuts, and hence more deficit spending, more debt, more in hock to China. In addition, McSame represents a continuation of the excesses of the "war on terror," particularly with respect to torture.

Americans are done with Bush. McSame will go down in flames in November because people don't want another old, tired, out of touch white guy who represents more of the same in the WH. As I've noted elsewhere, if *no one* were elected president and things were simply left to chance, I don't see how we could be worse off than we are now.

[CatherineM]

I'm not up on Arizona politics. Is it mostly Republican? Is that why he is a Republican even though he sounds more like a Democrat?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1606101' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:34 PM']I'm not up on Arizona politics. Is it mostly Republican? Is that why he is a Republican even though he sounds more like a Democrat?[/quote]
McSame is more of an "old skool" Republican, although the only delta between him and other Republicans is being hawkish on matters of DE-fense. He's not the more modern incarnation of the Republican born out of the culture wars, hence his ambiguity on life issues.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1605997' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:01 PM']I disagree. On two key issues, THE two key issue, Iraq and the economy, McSame offers a continuation of Bush's policies, i.e. more of the same: more Iraq, more tax cuts, and hence more deficit spending, more debt, more in hock to China. In addition, McSame represents a continuation of the excesses of the "war on terror," particularly with respect to torture.

Americans are done with Bush. McSame will go down in flames in November because people don't want another old, tired, out of touch white guy who represents more of the same in the WH. As I've noted elsewhere, if *no one* were elected president and things were simply left to chance, I don't see how we could be worse off than we are now.[/quote]

Those are still only two issues. Socialized health care does involve the economy, because whatever he may say, it requires more taxes, not tax cuts. You can't up government services while at the same time cutting taxes, especially when the economy is bad. He will not cut taxes. (really he won't do anything, because as you said he will "go down in flames"

Anyway, those are two issues, but they are not all that matter. When you look at more issues, life issues, Christian values in general, Bush and McCain are not the same.

[Justin86]

[quote name='Lounge Daddy' post='1605205' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:20 AM']I "get" use of the military, and I actually support the war. What's the point of going to war? So that more American civilians do not get killed, right? Then why in the heck are American civilians being kidnapped and murdered regularly on our own soil at our boarder? Over 70 Americans from one U.S. city alone kidnapped and held on the Mexico side! That's sick and gross negligence. And neither Obama nor McCain will address that convincingly. McCain even further blocked efforts to defend Americans.

[indent]
"Legitimate defense is not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others." CCC 2265[/indent]

I think that it should be pretty clear that American civilians are a greater responsibility than civilians of foreign countries. And it is hard to argue a military presence in other countries for preventing future harm of America when civilians are being killed at the border repeatedly right now.

If it sounds like I am blaming government for the deaths of Americans (outside of abortion) it is because I am. The very very first matter of national security is to take care of our boarders.

And our government tells us that we wanna stop bad guys over there before they come over here. Indeed; unless they come here via the US/Mexican boarder.[/quote]
The obligation to national defense is not only charged to the military. It's also the responsibility of the CIA, FBI, NSA, INS, Homeland Security, and many others. Saying the military needs to be put in charge of every single issue of national defense is ridiculous, and unnecessary.

Besides, just putting the military on the border isn't going to change anything unless our politicians get a backbone in defending our borders. All you would be doing is changing which bureaucracy the government is using to pretend to care. Furthermore, it would come at the expense of our enemies gaining power and using their new found positions to threaten us. Exactly what do you hope to gain with putting the military on the border right now?

[quote]Obama is hardly "the most pro-choice politician in American history." Right to Life didn't spend time and money fighting Obama's legislation in court; but they did fight legislation that McCain wrote. No one complained that "no one fought harder" to block pro-life legislation from reaching the floor for a vote than Obama. But there have been complaints that no one fought harder to block pro-life legislation than John McCain.[/quote]
Oh come now, are really trying to argue that McCain is more pro-choice than Obama? Obama campigined even more agressively than Hillary for partial-birth abortion, and I beleive actually has a higher rating than her by pro-choice groups. Anyone who thinks these two are same on life issues is a fool.

[quote]Um, the title reads "the emerging three party system."[/quote]
The article posted said Barr is running a three-way race. You've been defending this.

[Justin86]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605313' date='Jul 23 2008, 04:08 AM']Even if I don't end up voting for him, I want McCain to win because if he doesn't, Obama wins.[/quote]
The only way to make sure McCain wins is to actually vote for him. Vote for anyone else you might as well be voting for Obama.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1607233' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:24 AM']The only way to make sure McCain wins is to actually vote for him. Vote for anyone else you might as well be voting for Obama.[/quote]

I disagree. I think that Obama wins anyway. Also, I think that for true conservatives a vote for McCain is settling. It is telling the Republican party that it's ok to nominate people like McCain. It's not. He is definitely not acceptably pro-life, for one, and he also leans much more left than any candidate I'd feel comfortable voting for (i.e. socialized health care). The reason I'm voting third party is that I believe that once the Republicans have lost a significant number of votes due to nominations such as the current one, they will be shocked into at least a period of more conservative thinking. If that doesn't happen a third party is going to rise, because there are a significant number of Republicans who are true conservatives and won't settle too many elections in a row. It'll take a while, but it'll happen.

A vote for McCain is a vote for the "change" that Obama always talks about, because McCain represents change towards the left for the Republican party.

I find it hilarious how many people call McCain the same as Bush, and then many of the same people say that both Obama and McCain have the same views on everything. Tell me how that makes sense. McCain is much different from both Obama and Bush, but he's sorta in between them as far as I can see.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1607233' date='Jul 24 2008, 07:24 AM']The only way to make sure McCain wins is to actually vote for him. Vote for anyone else you might as well be voting for Obama.[/quote]

This isn't true. For one, we are all free to vote for the candidate we like best, which means we are under no duress to vote for another candidate just because of the perceived threat that voting third party is "throwing away" a vote. The only vote thrown away is one that isn't cast at all. The only way to vote for Obama is to vote for Obama.

The error you're making is presuming that third party candidates only appeal to conservatives who would otherwise vote Republican. The fact is third party candidates appeal to voters from across the political spectrum because they skirt past the traditional Republican/Democratic dividing lines. That's the only way a third party even gains the legitimacy of being a third party candidate.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1606101' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:34 PM']I'm not up on Arizona politics. Is it mostly Republican? Is that why he is a Republican even though he sounds more like a Democrat?[/quote]


Word on the street is that he was ALWAYS a liberal and switched to Republican so he could get the AZ senate seat and to advance in the political world. Becuase he knew AZ is mostly Republican. He IS a liberal, plain and simple. He is not a true Republican and certainly isn't a conservative.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='aalpha1989' post='1605976' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:36 AM']I don't understand why so many people think McCain is just more Bush. He's not.[/quote]

I totally agree 100%. I don't get how people can even think that. And despite the absurdity of it, they continue to perpetuate this.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1603635' date='Jul 19 2008, 08:56 PM']The American Independent Party is a good political choice for Catholics because -- unlike the Libertarian Party -- it is prolife and supports traditional family values, check out their platform at the link below:

[url="http://www.aip-ca.com/"][u]American Independent Party[/u][/url][/quote]


So in other words, they are what the Republican party is supposed to be?

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1610557' date='Jul 28 2008, 10:50 AM']I totally agree 100%. I don't get how people can even think that. And despite the absurdity of it, they continue to perpetuate this.[/quote]
[quote]I disagree. On two key issues, THE two key issue, Iraq and the economy, McSame offers a continuation of Bush's policies, i.e. more of the same: more Iraq, more tax cuts, and hence more deficit spending, more debt, more in hock to China. In addition, McSame represents a continuation of the excesses of the "war on terror," particularly with respect to torture.[/quote]

[Seven77]

lol

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1607232' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:22 AM']The article posted said Barr is running a three-way race. You've been defending this.[/quote]

Yes. We are not yet at the point where we have an official three-party system; however Bob Barr is running this as a three-way election.

[quote name='Justin86' post='1607233' date='Jul 24 2008, 06:24 AM']The only way to make sure McCain wins is to actually vote for him. Vote for anyone else you might as well be voting for Obama.[/quote]


I also disagree, for the reasons stated by Aalpha and LF. The only vote for Obama is to vote for Obama. And to vote for either McCain or Obama is to vote for the status quo.

Additionally I would point out that it is a trap of "either-or" polarization that has destroyed political systems in the past.

Germany is the most extreme recent example; many Germans felt it was either support German socialism or Russian-style communism. They fell into the "either-or" trap; in other words, the "lesser of two evils" trap.

Then, of course, Italy sold their fascism as the antidote to German socialism. As Dietrich von Hildebrand and others at the time observed, they are all just "different heads of the same Leviathan."

As long as enough sheeple keep voting for the GOP no matter what candidate is placed forward, any maniac will come along and utter a few token phrases to appease the base and run as the candidate that is at least not as horrendous as the other guy. And thus, both parties will continue to happily slide the U.S. from liberty to oppression.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1610561' date='Jul 28 2008, 11:51 AM']So in other words, they are what the Republican party is supposed to be? [/quote]

[Madame Vengier]

[quote]I disagree. On two key issues, THE two key issue, Iraq and the economy, McSame offers a continuation of Bush's policies, i.e. more of the same: more Iraq, more tax cuts, and hence more deficit spending, more debt, more in hock to China. In addition, McSame represents a continuation of the excesses of the "war on terror," particularly with respect to torture.[/quote]

Oh.

Well...