Im Confused By The Purgatory Thread

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1605297' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:48 PM']yes, definitely. it's about interconnected, but distinct concepts.
[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s=&showtopic=35&view=findpost&p=1601422"]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?s...t&p=1601422[/url]

i'd check out some of the other stuff i posted about justification etc.[/quote]

I think you're making a very simple doctrine much more complicated than it actually is. I understand you like to ask a lot of questions and explore these topics as deeply as possible, but a lot of times there just isn't that much to be said as far as what we know from Tradition and Scripture. There is a lot of speculation and private revelation, and all that stuff can be interesting to explore along with the relationship between purgatory and sanctification or whatever, but it's also good to sit back at times and simply ponder the mystery, praising God for the work He does and the grace He provides.

[Paddington]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I did not say that any protestant believes that sanctification serves no purpose.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']That, however is the logical conclusion that forces a contradition if one becomes truly holy and righteous anyway at death.[/quote]

They have other things that take the edge off of it. They don't normally believe in an egalitarian Heaven. And most Protestants do not believe in Justification that is unaccompanied by new life in Christ from the time of conversion until the time of death. Also, it is widely believed among Protestants that a disobedient Christian is completely miserable in life.
"Logical conclusion" is not safe here, and people are not logical. In fact, the Faith is not logical. Nobody's faith. If you break the Catholic Faith into isolated parts, the parts will each be open to a list of "pros and cons." The "cons" will have some unflattering "logical conclusions." But, the Catholic Faith is a cohesive whole and the parts justify each other. It is the same with theological systems such as Lutheranism and Calvinism.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I also did not say I have had any protestant say that the unregenerate become okay at death.[/quote]

Agreed.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']Again you do not deal with my questions head on but rather distort them in to something they are not.[/quote]

You read too much into it. I'm putting 2 cents into the discussion. Lots of people do it in lots of threads and the discussions expand from it. Please try to see better things out of me. Or see insensitivity or frustration as opposed to sleaze.
I will try to be respectful too.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']I merely pointed out things I see as contradictions by my understanding of what imputed righteous means and what the purpose of sanctification is. We are made holy and perfect via sanctification. That is my understanding of the definition.[/quote]

Perfectly understandable.


[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']You say, well that happens when the flesh falls off the soul anyway. That seems a bit odd to me. I do agree actually that concupisence goes away, i.e. our tendancy toward sins but this is a different discussion.[/quote]

Protestants believe in concupiscence in every person. They are not likely to use the same word, but yea. And they believe in the tension between new life and concupiscence in those who have received that grace. The means and outcomes of grace are different to be sure, but the general idea looks the same. If concupiscence falls off before Protestant-Heaven, or before (or after) Purgatory does not look like an issue to me. If you can clear that up for me, then great.

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1605231' date='Jul 22 2008, 03:45 PM']But imputed righteousness says we are not really holy and pure. I never knew that it said our souls are but our bodies aren't.[/quote]

One misunderstanding we might have right now is about souls and bodies. I didn't say anything that I wanted to be taken that way. That reminds me of how people say that the soul, mind and spirit are 3 different things, and I never know what they are talking about. (especially the soul/spirit distinction.) And I don't want to go dissing the body on behalf of people that probably don't diss the body so much. They just think it will be replaced/upgraded one day as Catholics do.

I'm only going for the "new nature and old nature" thing. "Dead in sin" vs. "Alive in Christ." "Spiritual nature" vs. "Fleshly nature." "State of grace" vs. "the opposite."

Imputed righteousness just might say that believers aren't holy and pure, but those who believe it also believe in Baptism of the Holy Spirit, regeneration, having God's law written on their hearts, repentance, church, confession and perseverance. The things that go along with imputed righteousness can be seen as separate, but a one-word Protestant definition of salvation would probably include all of these things. Of course, you never know who is actually believing what and there are Protestants who can be pretty "bare-minimum."

Well....sorry for whatever this lacks, but I'm tired and hitting 'add reply.'

Edited July 22, 2008 by Paddington

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='kujo' post='1604950' date='Jul 21 2008, 11:17 PM']I always feel like my sins are like dents and scratches on the body of a car. I can wash the car, get it detailed and painted, but the dent remains and will remain until they get banged out in purgatory...[/quote]
Oh Amen, brother!

[mortify]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1605074' date='Jul 22 2008, 04:23 AM']Could you elaborate on this statement? That's nowhere in public revelation, that I'm aware of.[/quote]

You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.

[Selah]

But they suffered for the greatest cause of all...that makes it all worth while

[mortify]

[quote name='Selah' post='1606618' date='Jul 23 2008, 06:12 PM']But they suffered for the greatest cause of all...that makes it all worth while[/quote]

I think the Saintly Doctor's point is that it's better to suffer as a martyr than in purgatory!

[saved by grace]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606553' date='Jul 23 2008, 05:40 PM']You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.[/quote]

So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?
Am I the only one who is bothered by this ? I understand im a screw up and a sinner and deserve punishment from God. I accept this but for pete sake allow Jesus then not to have to suffer in my place. If the pain fellt in purgatory is gonna be far greater then the pain Christ felt on the cross again why did Christ have to suffer on the cross ?
Arent I suffering for my sins in purgatory ? Going through this pain that I cant even imagine ? Again why did Christ have to die the way he did when he is INNOCENT, PERFECT, AND BLAMELESS for our sin if were gonna suffer pain " greater then all the pain combined suffered by the martyrs" ?

Edited July 24, 2008 by saved by grace

[thessalonian]

I guess I didn't read the purgatory thread. I don't agree that everyone who goes through purgatory suffers so excruciatingly. There are those in purgatory who are in the deepest rungs that suffer quite intensely. But there are also some who are only in briefly and receive lesser suffering.. It's not a one suffering fits all.

If Jesus took the suffering away for sin then why do we suffer because of what we do here. The alcoholic has destroyed his family. His wife left him, he never sees his kids, he has physical ailments. All of this is due to his sin. We all suffer for our sins. They come with a price regardless of whether we have repented or not so the logic you use just isn't there. This is all a part of our sanctification. Please read my post above about sanctification and purgatory because that is what I am confused by with protestant theology.

[mortify]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:56 PM']So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?[/quote]

He was crucified, not stoned.
[quote]Am I the only one who is bothered by this ? I understand im a screw up and a sinner and deserve punishment from God. I accept this but for pete sake allow Jesus then not to have to suffer in my place. If the pain fellt in purgatory is gonna be far greater then the pain Christ felt on the cross again why did Christ have to suffer on the cross ?
Arent I suffering for my sins in purgatory ? Going through this pain that I cant even imagine ? Again why did Christ have to die the way he did when he is INNOCENT, PERFECT, AND BLAMELESS for our sin if were gonna suffer pain " greater then all the pain combined suffered by the martyrs" ?[/quote]

The simple answer is that we're responsible too, and we have to do what we can. If I committed adultery and then simply said, "I'm sorry," that wouldn't satisfy the guilt for my crime. We have to remember God is a God of Justice, and I would have to make some penance to try to rectify my wrong. Penance in a case of adultery would probably be more complex, it's a grave wrong and I'd definitely be doing a lot of mortification to try to appease God. Now, please realize, that I'm not saying my penance will motivate God to *forgive* me my sins, only a Catholic Priest can validly absolve me by the power of Christ, but my penance is to show God I'm sorry and also rectify my wrong by fulfilling justice.

Lets give a simpler example. Suppose a kid plays ball and accidentally strikes one into a neighbor's window. The old lady who owns the house can *forgive* the boy, but the boy will still have to pay to have the window fixed (penance!) The same principle applies to us and God. If I'm absolved but don't do any penance or not enough penance, by the mercy of God I'll be able to make it up in purgatory.

As for the pains of purgatory, it's common these days to lessen everything, you know, less people go to hell, more of the unbaptized go to heaven than ever imagined, and purgatory is more of an uncomfortable situation than real pain. Perhaps there's some truth to these, but I prefer the old school understanding of things, and the pain of purgatory was never taken lightly, to the extent that the SLIGHTEST pain in purgatory is GREATER than the WORST pain on earth! Why this is no longer believed beats me, but I think our pious forefathers knew what they were talking about!

Besides, nothing wrong with being prepared by doing more

God bless

Edited July 24, 2008 by mortify

[thessalonian]

So your claim is once one becomes a Christian they are not punished for their sins? The Bible disagrees.

Heb 12
[4] In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
[5] And have you forgotten the exhortation which addresses you as sons? -- "My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor lose courage when you are punished by him.
[6] For the Lord disciplines him whom he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives."
[7] It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?
[8] If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons

Why all this discipline if Christ did all the suffering you ask? God loves you I say.

Edited July 25, 2008 by thessalonian

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]If Jesus took the suffering away for sin then why do we suffer because of what we do here. The alcoholic has destroyed his family. His wife left him, he never sees his kids, he has physical ailments. All of this is due to his sin. We all suffer for our sins. They come with a price regardless of whether we have repented or not so the logic you use just isn't there. This is all a part of our sanctification. Please read my post above about sanctification and purgatory because that is what I am confused by with protestant theology.[/quote]

as per why does jesus have to suffer, if we get punished too. i'd say what thes said.

i'd add also.. that arguably,,, the punishment that is deserved for sin, is infinite. that's something that we can't pay, only something as infinite from the other direction could pay, namely jesus' punishment. the temporal punishment, as the cahtolic church calls it, is not punishment for itself only, but temporal, getting the dings out... and is personal to you. the infinite problem isn't and can't be dealth wiht, but justice can at least be satisfied not only infinitely but also personally, so is all in all just.

now... if you ask, why can't the justice that occurs at the personal level be sufficient, ? why do we say it's nececssarily infinte? i guess in a sense, we can't undo the sins... so it's permanent and infintei like... but, we can't undo it, so why did Jesus have to suffer, what's the point? and especially since he didn't do it... so we're getting another to techincally take our place for somehting that can't be fixed?
i'm actually getting into my beefs with legal atonement... and as was said, these are all related but distinct concpets (atonement v. justification etc).
this is why i'm mroe of an orthodox perspective as per the atonement (it's been said to not be a definitve CC teaching, so even catholics could believe it i think, but largely they believe in legal atonrment). what was jesus' purpose in dying? to demonstrate the greatest love for the greatest injustice to ever occur, to ensure the manifestation of the spirit, to "medically recue" as the orthodox say, and spiritually rescue etc. to not implicate that fighting is good to people who wouldn't know better,,,, (even though he was probbaly justified, as most self defsnse arguments go) there's lots of meanings that could be attributed without a legalistic atonement.
and justiice is satisfed by what you get personally. you break it, you fix it, you suffer the consequences, punishment done. anything more, is subsituting someone for soemthing they didn't do in a way that doesn't fix what happened. i mean, if you could say that jesus fixed the broken thing as per analogy a lamp, then that's slick, but that's not what's going on, to human understanding anyway.

but i could be wrong.
i could be gravely wrong....

it could also be argued, and this is pretty trancendant... that if we insist on an infinite punishment (which i guess is my beef), we do indeed need an infinite fix, and only a legal fix could suffice (it's legal only cause Jesus didn't do it, the sin). then the human life, is a means for somone like jesus, to die, without ever really dying permanently to oblivion. that jesus would even have to die in a temporal sense, is infinitely sufficient.
now... i still don't like that it's a techincal legal preparation going on but.

Edited July 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i guess i see typing that, that it really gets to the nature of what punishment is.
if you insist a sin deserves infinite punishment... there is nothing that one could do to fix it and jesus' legal atonement is necessary. if you view punishment as fixing the thing, and tit for tat, proportional to what was done, then infinite doesn't make sense.

i think i could actually go with the legal atonement idea more, cause it's reasonable to view punishment as something that's not only necessary, but infinitely so. and when you takl about punishment,,, it's mostly a legal thing, a technical thing that's not suppose to fix anything... it's punishment. Jesus taking it, isn't meant ot fix that it was done, but it could arguably be said to take the place, take the punishment. techincally and legally

as i said before,
[quote]The traditional idea of savior i is that God is both just and loving, but must somehow reconcile justly our sins. The idea is that any sin is infinitely wrong and takes an infinite payment to reconcile. The only way to do that according to most Christians is for Jesus to die as a legal sacrafice and pay that legal debt to God. God decides as judge to make the sentence, but as a father he decides to come down from the bench, and takes the punishment.[/quote]

interesting,,, the awareness that it's all about punishment, the issue... cause i didn't ever really understand the legal stuff at all really, and i knew a lot of arguments about it.

Edited July 25, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1252/is_2_132/ai_n14819429/pg_3?tag=artBody;col1"]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m125...ag=artBody;col1[/url]

not a whole lot of new ideas,,, but some good foot notes etc.

[saved by grace]

[quote name='mortify' post='1607471' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:23 PM']He was crucified, not stoned.[/quote]

im sorry for the way i worded that. your absolutely right and i should of reread what i wrote.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606553' date='Jul 23 2008, 07:40 PM']You already know Catholic teaching isn't only based on what's explicitly revealed in scripture. That the pain of purgatory overwhelms the greatest pain that can be experienced on earth, is taught in the Catechism and is found in the teachings of the Fathers. St Augustine said the pain of purgatory is greater than all the pain the martyrs suffered COMBINED.[/quote]

It's not in the Catechism and St. Augustine was born a couple centuries after the close of public revelation (at the death of St. John). His writings are to be commended and respected, but we aren't required to believe it unless it's from Scripture and/or Tradition, or declared an infallible teaching of the Church in a Council or by the Pope.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mortify' post='1606793' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:04 PM']I think the Saintly Doctor's point is that it's better to suffer as a martyr than in purgatory![/quote]

"Making a point" implies the use of hyperbole, which means it definitely shouldn't be taken literally.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:56 AM']So if the pain that we will suffer in purgatory is greater then all the pain the martyrs suffered combinded and is needed to get into heaven, why did Jesus have to be stoned to death on a cross for our sins ?[/quote]

Please be aware that this doesn't come from Scripture or Tradition. It comes from a writing by St. Augustine and must be read in the proper context. It wasn't intended to be taken as a literal fact. We simply don't know that much about purgatory to teach "facts" about what happens there or what the experience is like. We can only speculate based on what God has revealed to His Church.

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1607124' date='Jul 24 2008, 01:56 AM']Am I the only one who is bothered by this ?[/quote]

No, and you're apparently ignoring the posts of those who are on your side here. I've already clarified this and even quoted everything from the Catechism about purgatory.

[saved by grace]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1610505' date='Jul 28 2008, 09:10 AM']Please be aware that this doesn't come from Scripture or Tradition. It comes from a writing by St. Augustine and must be read in the proper context. It wasn't intended to be taken as a literal fact. We simply don't know that much about purgatory to teach "facts" about what happens there or what the experience is like. We can only speculate based on what God has revealed to His Church.
No, and you're apparently ignoring the posts of those who are on your side here. I've already clarified this and even quoted everything from the Catechism about purgatory.[/quote]

Sorry LouisvilleFan I did see your post and apprecatie your reply's because they make sence. I also thank you for stateing how some of the information being passed along in this thread isnt complete 100 % fact. It seems as if some are obsessed with suffering and feel that everyone must experience it in its greatest form. I think suffering is very beneficial and believe everyone goes through it, some more then others of course. I also believe though in a LOVEING GOD who would not put us through suffering that wasnt necessary. I think thats where some of us dont see eye to eye in this thread.

Edited July 28, 2008 by saved by grace

[Deb]

Jesus Christ died on the cross to put an end to eternal death. Death was a result of the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus, by being fully man and fully God, was able to create a bridge between man and God.

Prior to man being able to be resurrected (which Jesus was as fully man) when someone died, they just died. No heaven, no nothing. Jesus died for original sin. Christ issued in a new convenant. We were given the Son of God, who became the Son of Man so that the sons of man can become sons of God. We are all to live as Christ lived and not just meaning, living the ten commandments and the beatitudes. It means truly living like Christ, spreading the Gospel, helping the poor, suffering and dying. His obedience, his suffering and his death were all done in order to enable us to – obey, suffer and to die a holy death in union with Christ. Christ said that we were to pick up our crosses and follow him. Catholism cannot be separated from suffering.

We have to keep in mind that Christ did not pay a full eternal penalty for sin. He died to bring us a chance and choice of eternal salvation. Every single Mass we are offering up the life, suffering and death of our Lord along with our sufferings as a sacrifice to God. We ask God to accept our sacrifice in every Mass. We are still asking for mercy every single day.
Read up on the covenants prior to the new one that Jesus Christ brought us. It all comes together. This is not the easiest thing to understand but, if you really study the bible from the Old testament through the New, you will see why Christ died as he did. He was fulfilling the plan as God wrote it at the beginning of time.

One thing that a person should keep in mind is that Christ did not come as just some super nice God guy who was going to die for us and then all would be nice and we could go along and sin as we please. We must remember that throughout the old testament, the people of Israel were constantly paying the price for their refusal to live by God's commandments and to honor him. Jesus is called The Lamb of God. Revelations shows him returning as The Lion of the tribe of Judah. Everything in revelations is centered around fear. Jesus spoke more about hell than he did of heaven. When he spoke about them both, he stressed the punishment more than the reward. Jesus spent three times the amount of time on the "Woes" than he did on the "Beatitudes." Christ is a lamb because he stressed nonagression. God calls all of his children to him but, he does not force his will upon them. His children will however have to pay the price for turning from him and turning to sin.

So, purgatory could be a whole lot of stuff. That is why I consider our life here a test. Very few will pass with a top score. The rest, after death, will have to make up what they failed to get here on earth.

I will add a disclaimer. I don't always know how to phrase what I understand in my heart so if anyone can come up with a simpler way to explain why Christ died and sin etc, please do so. I am always ready to learn all that I can.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='saved by grace' post='1610814' date='Jul 28 2008, 05:57 PM']Sorry LouisvilleFan I did see your post and apprecatie your reply's because they make sence. I also thank you for stateing how some of the information being passed along in this thread isnt complete 100 % fact. It seems as if some are obsessed with suffering and feel that everyone must experience it in its greatest form. I think suffering is very beneficial and believe everyone goes through it, some more then others of course. I also believe though in a LOVEING GOD who would not put us through suffering that wasnt necessary. I think thats where some of us dont see eye to eye in this thread.[/quote]

You're welcome. I wonder if Catholics don't obsess a little too much over purgatory simply because it's one belief that distinguishes us so much from Protestantism. I feel like some of us emphasize it to a fault and are forgetting that purgatory is simply preparation for Heaven. It's not a destination. Of course, we don't hear much about it at Mass. I can only recall one homily about purgatory and grace wasn't mentioned.

Other thing to remember, though, is that in Christ suffering is redeemed. It helps destroy pride and become detached from this world and grow in hope of being in Heaven. Obviously, we should trust God doesn't give us more suffering or temptation than we can handle.


[quote name='Deb' post='1610969' date='Jul 28 2008, 08:05 PM']So, purgatory could be a whole lot of stuff. That is why I consider our life here a test. Very few will pass with a top score. The rest, after death, will have to make up what they failed to get here on earth.

I will add a disclaimer. I don't always know how to phrase what I understand in my heart so if anyone can come up with a simpler way to explain why Christ died and sin etc, please do so. I am always ready to learn all that I can. [/quote]

Being a former Protestant, I prefer to steer clear of wording like "make up" because it implies we believe we must perform some works to get into Heaven. Fact is, we can't do anything in purgatory. We can't even pray there. Whatever happens there is God's work, just as it should be on earth.