The Danger Of Criticizing Priests And Bishops

[Apotheoun]

St. Maximos the Confessor publicly criticized Patriarch Pyrrhus during the Monothelite controversy.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1605847' date='Jul 23 2008, 06:32 AM']Of course I read it. And the end of the post it says "comments?" and I gave my comments. How did that warrant asking me if "you even read the article"? [/quote]
+J.M.J.+
just asking. like aalpha just read the part that i quoted, and didn't go to the link provided and read the whole thing. no worries.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1605993' date='Jul 23 2008, 09:56 AM']You're bringing nothing to this dialogue, and making a joke of a topic that is very serious and which the other members are taking the time and effort to post serious thoughts about.[/quote]
it's what winchester does.

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606042' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:40 AM']That depends upon what is in dispute.[/quote]like what do you mean?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1606049' date='Jul 23 2008, 10:46 AM']like what do you mean?[/quote]
Public criticism of priests and bishops who espouse theological error is perfectly acceptable. In fact, depending upon the case, it may be a duty to publicly criticize a priest or a bishop, and this is clear to anyone who knows anything about the history of theological disputes in the Church.

So, if a priest or a bishop were to promote Monothelitism, Nestorianism, Arianism, Monophysitism, Eutychianism, Eunomianism, Apolllinarianism, Iconoclasm, et al., or a new heresy for that matter, it would be completely just and proper for a man to take that priest or bishop to task for his error. Remember, all of those wonderful heresies I mentioned above, and many more, were brought to us by priests and bishops, and all of those priests and bishops were publicly criticized by other hierarchs and by the lay faithful. We must not hide the light of truth under a bushel (cf. Matthew 5:15).

Edited July 23, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Proud2BCatholic139]

Take it up to Jesus. The priest represents Him!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' post='1606076' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:18 AM']Take it up to Jesus. The priest represents Him![/quote]
We all represent Jesus, and we will all stand before the bar of judgment and be judged for our actions (or our faillure to act) in defense of the truth.

[cmotherofpirl]

Doesn't it depend on what the priest did?
There is a big difference between liturgical abuse and public sin.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1606082' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:22 AM']Doesn't it depend on what the priest did?
There is a big difference between liturgical abuse and public sin.[/quote]
Didn't I say in one of my posts ". . . depending upon the case"?

[StColette]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606068' date='Jul 23 2008, 01:10 PM']Public criticism of priests and bishops who espouse theological error is perfectly acceptable. In fact, depending upon the case, it may be a duty to publicly criticize a priest or a bishop, and this is clear to anyone who knows anything about the history of theological disputes in the Church.

So, if a priest or a bishop were to promote Monothelitism, Nestorianism, Arianism, Monophysitism, Eutychianism, Eunomianism, Apolllinarianism, Iconoclasm, et al., or a new heresy for that matter, it would be completely just and proper for a man to take that priest or bishop to task for his error. Remember, all of those wonderful heresies I mentioned above, and many more, were brought to us by priests and bishops, and all of those priests and bishops were publicly criticized by other hierarchs and by the lay faithful. We must not hide the light of truth under a bushel (cf. Matthew 5:15).[/quote]

I completely agree. I mean if my priest started teaching Nestorianism; I would definitely say something especially because I'm involved in the catechesis at our parish. You have no idea what type of damage having a priest teaching something like Nestorianism can do. It's very difficult to reteach a high schooler or child something that was taught to them incorrectly by a priest.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1606082' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:22 AM']There is a big difference between liturgical abuse and public sin.[/quote]
Sometimes a liturgical abuse is also be a theological error.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Proud2BCatholic139' post='1606076' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:18 PM']Take it up to Jesus. The priest represents Him![/quote]

The priest represents Jesus...on behalf of the Church. If he fails in that duty then he should be gently and firmly reminded.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1606047' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:44 AM']+J.M.J.+
just asking. like aalpha just read the part that i quoted, and didn't go to the link provided and read the whole thing. no worries.[/quote]

Yeah, I thought the post was asking for general comments on the topic.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606044' date='Jul 23 2008, 11:41 AM']St. Maximos the Confessor publicly criticized Patriarch Pyrrhus during the Monothelite controversy.[/quote]

As did St. Vincent Ferrer with Pope Benedict XIII and Fra Girolamo Savonarola did with Pope Alexander VI (both going so far as to consider them deposed)

and of course St. Catherine of Siena

and St. Hildegard of Bingen who criticised bishops. Plenty more no doubt but those are off top of my head.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1606082' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:22 PM']Doesn't it depend on what the priest did?
There is a big difference between liturgical abuse and public sin.[/quote]

Possibly. But in the case of St. Vincent Ferrer there was no heresy involved. The reigning pope simply refused to cooperate in ending the Schism and by that Ferrer publicly confronted him and considered him no longer pope. So it probably depends on the case, but it varies.

[CatherineM]

St. Catherine had more guts than I do. I can't imagine sending a letter to the Pope pointing out something he was doing wrong.

[CatholicCid]

I think a good rule of thumb would be that, if the scandal or error is taught publicly, then there is public scandal and it needs to be address publicly in a charitable manner to resolve the scandal.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1606156' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:33 PM']The priest represents Jesus...on behalf of the Church. If he fails in that duty then he should be gently and firmly reminded.[/quote]
agreed

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1606158' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:34 PM']Yeah, I thought the post was asking for general comments on the topic. [/quote]
yes, it was, but i don't like to post whole articles (makes the topic really long and people aren't as apt to read it), when i can post snippets of the article. but it's still helpful to read the whole article.

God bless, Lil Red

[Barbarus]

I don't think it's possible to have a hard and fast rule about when criticism (public or otherwise) is appropriate. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't, and it depends on a variety of factors, not the least of which is the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Regardless, one should always have the utmost respect for those who have care of us.

[Deb]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1606036' date='Jul 23 2008, 12:35 PM']But only if the asparagus is served in garlic butter.[/quote]

I actually prefer it grilled with a little olive oil and then just a splash of balsamic vinegar.

Satan eats the hinds of his minions, raw.