cmotherofpirl Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [i][quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1614483' date='Jul 31 2008, 07:49 PM']See this is where you cross the line. The Church doesn't say this is the surest way to grow in holiness it is your personal opinon, which is not the same thing. You seem to be rather rigid, you consistantly come across that what you think is the best way is also or should be the Church's way.[/i] "friendofJPII said" "From To Jesus through Mary," St. Louis Marie DeMontfort Secondly, we must conclude that, being necessary to God by a necessity which is called "hypothetical", (that is, because God so willed it), the Blessed Virgin is all the more necessary for men to attain their final end. Consequently we must not place devotion to her on the same level as devotion to the other saints as if it were merely something optional. 40. The pious and learned Jesuit, Suarez, Justus Lipsius, a devout and erudite theologian of Louvain, and many others have proved incontestably that devotion to our Blessed Lady is necessary to attain salvation. This they show from the teaching of the Fathers, notably St. Augustine, St. Ephrem, deacon of Edessa, St. Cyril of Jerusalem, St. Germanus of Constantinople, St. John Demascene, St. Anselm, St. Bernard, St. Bernardine, St. Thomas and St. Bonaventure. Even according to Oecolampadius and other heretics, lack of esteem and love for the Virgin Mary is an infallible sign of God's disapproval. On the other hand, to be entirely and genuinely devoted to her is a sure sign of God's approval.[/quote] Again you are confusing a devotional method with not loving the Mother of God. I can be entirely devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary and never ever say a Rosary. Please [size=3]STOP[/size] putting your opinions out as Church teachings. Devotion to Mary by saying the Rosary IS NOT NECESSSARY TO SALVATION. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1614988' date='Aug 1 2008, 10:21 AM'][i] Again you are confusing a devotional method with not loving the Mother of God. I can be entirely devoted to the Blessed Virgin Mary and never ever say a Rosary. Please [size=3]STOP[/size] putting your opinions out as Church teachings. Devotion to Mary by saying the Rosary IS NOT NECESSSARY TO SALVATION.[/quote] Please calm down. I never said praying the Rosary was necessary for salvation. I said it was extremely helpful, very powerful, and I was encouraging people to pray it once in a blue moon (once or twice a month?). "To Jesus through Mary, " was a prominent theme throught JPII's entire pontificate. We cannot go to Jesus without going through Mary. Even if someone thinks they are going directly to Jesus, they are still going through Mary. I don't understand how people on here can tout the glories of immoral TV shows and movies, but if I encourage people to pray the Rosary because the world is in dire straits (1/2 of the country is considering electing a man who believes in infanticide) I'm chastised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1615020' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:57 AM']I don't understand how people on here can tout the glories of immoral TV shows and movies, but if I encourage people to pray the Rosary because the world is in dire straits (1/2 of the country is considering electing a man who believes in infanticide) I'm chastised.[/quote] I'm not sure who has been encouraging immoral TV shows or movies, but that's definitely a problem if they are. I'm glad that you are encouraging the Rosary, but I believe what I and the others are having an issue with is how you are promoting it. Your approach has been that for the most part that it's either pray the Rosary or you aren't honoring Mary. Now let me explain that. You have said time and time again that though other Marian devotions are good but the Rosary is much better. You seem not to understand why someone could have other Marian devotions but not pray the Rosary which is the crown of Marian devotion. It's this way of promoting the Rosary that I believe many of us are having an issue with, because it makes other Marian devotions seem less important (which is not the case and that's probably not your intention) but that's the way it is coming across. A person is able to love Our Lady and be devoted to her through different devotions and sometimes without the need of devotions at all. Some people just merely speak with her and ask her to intercede for their intentions. I believe you're coming across to others as saying that the Rosary is the only way to have Marian Devotion or the great way to have Marian devotion, but I would say that isn't the case. I know many people who just rattle through the Rosary without praying it devoutly because they feel they have to pray it and then I know others who offer up just a simple Hail Mary for Our Lady with such devoted hearts. One must wonder what Our Lady finds more pleasing, the vain praying of the Rosary or the devout recitation of one Hail Mary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
friendofJPII Posted August 1, 2008 Author Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1615045' date='Aug 1 2008, 11:24 AM']I'm not sure who has been encouraging immoral TV shows or movies, but that's definitely a problem if they are. I'm glad that you are encouraging the Rosary, but I believe what I and the others are having an issue with is how you are promoting it. Your approach has been that for the most part that it's either pray the Rosary or you aren't honoring Mary. Now let me explain that. You have said time and time again that though other Marian devotions are good but the Rosary is much better. You seem not to understand why someone could have other Marian devotions but not pray the Rosary which is the crown of Marian devotion. It's this way of promoting the Rosary that I believe many of us are having an issue with, because it makes other Marian devotions seem less important (which is not the case and that's probably not your intention) but that's the way it is coming across. A person is able to love Our Lady and be devoted to her through different devotions and sometimes without the need of devotions at all. Some people just merely speak with her and ask her to intercede for their intentions. I believe you're coming across to others as saying that the Rosary is the only way to have Marian Devotion or the great way to have Marian devotion, but I would say that isn't the case. I know many people who just rattle through the Rosary without praying it devoutly because they feel they have to pray it and then I know others who offer up just a simple Hail Mary for Our Lady with such devoted hearts. One must wonder what Our Lady finds more pleasing, the vain praying of the Rosary or the devout recitation of one Hail Mary.[/quote] I understand what you are saying and I see your point. I think what I took issue with is the idea that the Rosary "is just another devotion" when it has such a strong history and is such a powerful prayer. I apologize if I made anyone feel uncomfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='friendofJPII' post='1615062' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:32 PM']I understand what you are saying and I see your point. I think what I took issue with is the idea that the Rosary "is just another devotion" when it has such a strong history and is such a powerful prayer. I apologize if I made anyone feel uncomfortable.[/quote] I understand where you could have had an issue with the idea that the Rosary is "just another devotion". It does have a very rich history and is very powerful, but we must also stay mindful that all devotions have their own history and some people may find it just as strong of a history as the Rosary, such as the Liturgy of the Hours or Eucharistic Adoration both of which are very powerful and have deep historical background. In often comes down to the perspective of the individual. But thank you for seeing the point I believe many of us were trying to come across with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) Seeing that the Holy Rosary is CHRISTO-CENTRIC...I don't have a problem considering it is necessary for my salvation...since it is the perfect tool to keep my mind on Jesus, meditate on His life everyday of my own life, and have the Mother of God interceding for me all at the same time! The Holy Rosary was given to us to make it all simple and beautiful and profound. It's us poor sinners being able to pray side-by-side with the Most Royal Queen of Heaven...! She comes to help us to offer to the Almighty God, a daily exercise of meditation, petition and praise! There seems to be an ignorance of what the Holy Rosary really is. It is praying to GOD with the mighty intercession of the Mother of God, it's not MARY-CENTRIC at all! And seeing that time and time again, when Our Lady tries to help us pitiful sinners, she'll appear to certain saints, and tell them to pray the Rosary every day...I'll take her at her word! Who do you think sends her to tell us these things? Edited August 1, 2008 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) [quote]The Rosary of the Virgin Mary, which gradually [b]took form in the second millennium under the guidance of the Spirit of God[/b], is a prayer loved by countless Saints and encouraged by the Magisterium. Simple yet profound, it still remains, at the dawn of this third millennium, a prayer of great significance, destined to bring forth a harvest of holiness. It blends easily into the spiritual journey of the Christian life, which, after two thousand years, has lost none of the freshness of its beginnings and feels drawn by the Spirit of God to “set out into the deep” (duc in altum!) in order once more to proclaim, and even cry out, before the world that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour, “the way, and the truth and the life” (Jn 14:6), “the goal of human history and the point on which the desires of history and civilization turn”.(1) The Rosary, though clearly Marian in character, [b]is at heart a Christocentric prayer[/b]. In the sobriety of its elements, it has all the depth of the Gospel message in its entirety, of which it can be said to be a compendium.(2) [b]It is an echo of the prayer of Mary, her perennial Magnificat for the work of the redemptive Incarnation [/b]which began in her virginal womb. [b]With the Rosary, the Christian people sits at the school of Mary and is led to contemplate the beauty on the face of Christ and to experience the depths of his love. Through the Rosary the faithful receive abundant grace, as though from the very hands of the Mother of the Redeemer. [/b]---ROSARIUM VIRGINIS MARIAE[/quote] Couldn't say it better than that, dear dear John Paul the Great!!! BEAUTIFUL, SIMPLY BEAUTIFUL! Edited August 1, 2008 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeresaBenedicta Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1615095' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:51 PM']Seeing that the Holy Rosary is CHRISTO-CENTRIC...I don't have a problem considering it is necessary for my salvation...since it is the perfect tool to keep my mind on Jesus, meditate on His life everyday of my own life, and have the Mother of God interceding for me all at the same time! The Holy Rosary was given to us to make it all simple and beautiful and profound. It's us poor sinners being able to pray side-by-side with the Most Royal Queen of Heaven...! She comes to help us to offer to the Almighty God, a daily exercise of meditation, petition and praise! There seems to be an ignorance of what the Holy Rosary really is. It is praying to GOD with the mighty intercession of the Mother of God, it's not MARY-CENTRIC at all! And seeing that time and time again, when Our Lady tries to help us pitiful sinners, she'll appear to certain saints, and tell them to pray the Rosary every day...I'll take her at her word! Who do you think sends her to tell us these things?[/quote] All Marian dogmas and devotions should be/are Christocentric. I don't think there's an ignorance of the Rosary is. No one here has said anything against it or doubted that it is a mighty tool... But, we do have a problem with folks saying that it is necessary for our salvation or that in order to have a devotion to Mary we must pray it or that we are somehow lacking something in our prayer life by not praying it. Not everyone is called to pray the Rosary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' post='1614497' date='Jul 31 2008, 08:02 PM']Yes, the rosary is a prayer dedicted to the Blessed Mother. But see, that's just it... it's a prayer. And not everyone is called to pray in the same way. And there are various ways to express devotion to the Blessed Mother. It's very much an individual analysis.[/quote] This is what I was responding to. It isn't a prayer dedicated to the Blessed Mother. And it isn't "just a prayer," as the words of Pope John Paul II attest. Edited August 1, 2008 by dominicansoul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1615122' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:14 PM']And it isn't "just a prayer," as the words of Pope John Paul II attest.[/quote] If you read Teresa's post carefully she didn't say "it's just a prayer" she said "it's a prayer" which it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1615125' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:17 PM']If you read Teresa's post carefully she didn't say "it's just a prayer" she said "it's a prayer" which it is.[/quote] No, but it's more than a prayer.... My emphasis is that it is more than "just a prayer," understand? I wasn't quoting T...I'm trying to emphasize it is more than "just a prayer." Re-read the post of Pope John Paul II's description...it is not a prayer...it is more than that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1615134' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:24 PM']Re-read the post of Pope John Paul II's description...it is not a prayer...it is more than that! [/quote] According to Rosarium Virginis Mariae it's called a prayer, I can site the paragraphs if you would like. The Pope shows emphasis as to what that prayer is, a contemplation of the Life of Christ in the school of Mary. Fundamentally it is still a prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1615139' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:28 PM']According to Rosarium Virginis Mariae it's called a prayer, I can site the paragraphs if you would like. The Pope shows emphasis as to what that prayer is, a contemplation of the Life of Christ in the school of Mary. Fundamentally it is still a prayer.[/quote] Oh... ..i wasn't being technical, or fundamental... ...I was being very very Romantic...! And if you read the whole document, you will see, the Holy Father isn't explaining it fundamentally or technically....He explains it with his whole heart, soul, mind...... call it what you wish...but I don't see it as a prayer....I see it as soooo much more! Prayer, Praise, Meditation, connection.....INTIMACY with God, all by the side of Our Mother, as if she is holding my hands while the beads flow through my fingers and I experience the mystery of the Life of Her Son.... to call it a prayer is an understatement.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='dominicansoul' post='1615147' date='Aug 1 2008, 01:33 PM']And if you read the whole document, you will see, the Holy Father isn't explaining it fundamentally or technically....He explains it with his whole heart, soul, mind...... [/quote] I've read, several times. You don't go through three Marian Theology classes without reading it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dominicansoul Posted August 1, 2008 Share Posted August 1, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1615153' date='Aug 1 2008, 12:38 PM']I've read, several times. You don't go through three Marian Theology classes without reading it. [/quote] I've never taken any Marian Theology classes....but I still don't consider it as "just a prayer." I also don't see how any one can dismiss it as not important for our spirituality, nor do I understand it when individuals feel that it's equal to all the other devotions that are out there... ...but hey, that's just me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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