Bush Approves Execution Of Army Private

[kafka]

[quote name='Deb' post='1612027' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:17 PM']Do you really think that God backs man killing each other under the guise of punishment? Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should continue. Just like abortion. Protection of life is from conception to natural death. Capital punishment is just another piece of a culture of death.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf[/url][/quote]
But Deb, God ordered the Israelites to apply the death penalty. God cannot require anyone to do anything which is intrinsically evil.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Deb' post='1612027' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:17 PM']Do you really think that God backs man killing each other under the guise of punishment? Just because something is legal, doesn't mean it should continue. Just like abortion. Protection of life is from conception to natural death. Capital punishment is just another piece of a culture of death.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf"]http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/national/penaltyofdeath.pdf[/url][/quote]

God has given the nations the Right to carry out the death penalty on major unjust criminals. [u]The Church and Her Saints have taught this since Her birth[/u]. It is a modern novelty that the death penalty is wrong or immoral, or that modern nations like that of the US do not also have a right to carry out the death penalty.

In the eyes of God the murderer loses the 'protection' of his own life because by murdering another living being he forfeits his right to life. Abortion is not the same abortions [u]murders[/u] the innocent, the death penalty when done justly does not [u]kill[/u] the innocent.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='kafka' post='1612032' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:22 PM']But Deb, God ordered the Israelites to apply the death penalty. God cannot require anyone to do anything which is intrinsically evil.[/quote]


Remind me, how exactly did God deal with the first murderer Cain?

[kafka]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612042' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:38 PM']Remind me, how exactly did God deal with the first murderer Cain?[/quote]
are you for real? First off Cain wasnt an Israelite. Second off you know well there are examples in the O.T. and specific commands of God to put to death those who committed certains acts against some negative precepts such as thou shalt not committ adultery.

[KnightofChrist]

Instead of waiting to page 20 of this thread to say this I'll say it now, since it will be pretty much in the end the logical and correct conclusion. A catholic can be personally against the death penalty but a catholic can not deny the right of the use of the death penalty on grave immoral unjust criminals by any State/Government, including modern Nations like the US or Europe. A catholic also can not teach that the Death Penalty is immoral in and of itself.

Edited July 29, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Brother Adam' post='1611995' date='Jul 29 2008, 04:32 PM']Combining that with Catholic theology and Balthasar's philosophy I am straddling the fence on many executions. If it were up to me I would probably stay the execution of anyone who is clearly no longer violent in prison and keep them there for life without the possibility of parole. As it is the civil (or in this case military) authority has spoken and has rendered a just punishment for his crimes and find no fault in carrying out that punishment.[/quote]
No one goes to hell who does not choose to d[i]a[/i]mn himself.

The traditional teaching of the Church holds that a criminal who accepts his punishment willingly, even if that punishment is death, expiates his sins and can in the process achieve salvation.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[kafka]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612050' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:46 PM']A catholic can be personally against the death penalty but a catholic can not deny the right of the use of the death penalty on grave immoral unjust criminals by any State/Government, including modern Nations like the US or Europe. A catholic also can not teach that the Death Penalty is immoral in and of itself.[/quote]
Yet let me make a more precise distinction.

the death penalty is not instrinsically evil, therefore the morality of the overall act of its use defaults to the circumstance/consequences. The good consequences of its use must weigh the bad consequences in order for its use to be moral. This is a decision of the prudential order and therefore subject to error (in other words it is fallible), therefore Catholics may disagree with a decision by a leader or court of its use within reason, based on judgment of the possible consequences in the present or the consequences of a case in history.

example. The execution of Saddam Hussein. There is little argument against the fact that the use of the death penalty in this case was just and prudent, since he committed genocide.

[Apotheoun]

God has given the power of the sword to the State in order to execute judgment (cf. Roman 13:1-4), and to deny this is to deny a divinely revealed truth.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='kafka' post='1612049' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:44 PM']are you for real? First off Cain wasnt an Israelite. Second off you know well there are examples in the O.T. and specific commands of God to put to death those who committed certains acts against some negative precepts such as thou shalt not committ adultery.[/quote]

My point was that the Old Testament is probably not the best source for a discussion on modern criminal justice. I can just be a bit vague at times.

[kafka]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612091' date='Jul 29 2008, 08:22 PM']My point was that the Old Testament is probably not the best source for a discussion on modern criminal justice. I can just be a bit vague at times.[/quote]
maybe not for the details of court procedure, or evidence or prosecution, but the basic principles of the moral law and whether or not acts are moral or immoral are for all times. My point is that God cannot command an instrinsically evil act (in this case use of the death penalty) since God is Truth, He cannot contradict His own Nature

[CatherineM]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612050' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:46 PM']Instead of waiting to page 20 of this thread to say this I'll say it now, since it will be pretty much in the end the logical and correct conclusion. A catholic can be personally against the death penalty but a catholic can not deny the right of the use of the death penalty on grave immoral unjust criminals by any State/Government, including modern Nations like the US or Europe. A catholic also can not teach that the Death Penalty is immoral in and of itself.[/quote]

Thankyou. I never said the death penalty was immoral. I simply have said repeatedly, that I don't think it is necessary in the US. I am glad that someone has finally said that it is OK for a Catholic to be personally against the death penalty, because most of the time when the topic comes up, I am attacked for being opposed to it.

No one on Phatmass who supports the death penalty has ever been able to give me a reason why I should be attacked, particularly by members of the Church Militant, for holding a position that JPII also held. I am not saying that the CCC doesn't say that the death penalty is allowed. I am saying that as a mature, educated Catholic with a well formed, non-scrupulous conscience, I am allowed to believe that the death penalty isn't necessary in well developed countries such as the US.

[Apotheoun]

The moral precepts set forth in the Old Testament, which includes the power of the State to execute a criminal, reflects the immutable natural moral law; while the judicial and ritual precepts had only a preparatory messianic importance that has been fulfilled through the incarnation, passion, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612100' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:28 PM']Thankyou. I never said the death penalty was immoral. I simply have said repeatedly, that I don't think it is necessary in the US.[/quote]
I have noted your position, which I believe is doctrinally sound.

Catholics are free to disagree with each other as far as the application of the death penalty is concerned.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1612100' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:28 PM']Thankyou. I never said the death penalty was immoral. I simply have said repeatedly, that I don't think it is necessary in the US. I am glad that someone has finally said that it is OK for a Catholic to be personally against the death penalty, because most of the time when the topic comes up, I am attacked for being opposed to it.

No one on Phatmass who supports the death penalty has ever been able to give me a reason why I should be attacked, particularly by members of the Church Militant, for holding a position that JPII also held. I am not saying that the CCC doesn't say that the death penalty is allowed. I am saying that as a mature, educated Catholic with a well formed, non-scrupulous conscience, I am allowed to believe that the death penalty isn't necessary in well developed countries such as the US.[/quote]

Yes you can be personally against the death penalty. But one can not deny the [u]any[/u] state's right to use the death penalty.

[Didymus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612035' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:27 PM']In the eyes of God the murderer loses the 'protection' of his own life because by murdering another living being he forfeits his right to life. Abortion is not the same abortions [u]murders[/u] the innocent, the death penalty when done justly does not [u]kill[/u] the innocent.[/quote]

Please show me a source in which the Magisterium has specifically stated that anyone can actually forfeit their right to life.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Didymus

[Didymus]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1612111' date='Jul 29 2008, 08:37 PM']Yes you can be personally against the death penalty. But one can not deny the [u]any[/u] state's right to use the death penalty.[/quote]

can you show me where and how we are forbidden to deny the state this 'right' in certain circumstances (viz. the one in which I have already disclosed in previous posts)?

Edited July 30, 2008 by Didymus

[Apotheoun]

If a murderer did not "forfeit" his right to life by his heinous crime the application of the death penalty would be impossible, and that proposition is contrary to Catholic doctrine.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612113' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:37 PM']Please show me a source in which the Magisterium has specifically stated that anyone can forfeit their right to life.[/quote]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1612116' date='Jul 29 2008, 07:42 PM']If a murderer did not "forfeit" his right to life by his heinous crime the application of the death penalty would be impossible, and that proposition is contrary to Catholic doctrine.[/quote]

Edited July 30, 2008 by KnightofChrist

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1612115' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:40 PM']can you show me where and how we are forbidden to deny the state this 'right' in certain circumstances (viz. the one in which I have already disclosed in previous posts)?[/quote]
God has given the power of the sword to the State, and no human being can revoke what God has granted.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Apotheoun

[XIX]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1611956' date='Jul 29 2008, 06:44 PM']The virtue of justice, which one must practice if he is to achieve salvation, includes retributive justice.[/quote]
But what's the point of retributive justice? It seems counterintuitive to suppose that retributive justice can be applied simply for the sake of punishing another person. It has to serve a purpose (to discourage others from committing a crime, to protect society from a criminal, to encourage repentance, etc.) Otherwise it's just us trying to play God by acting like we know what other people "deserve."

We all deserve a horrible fate, due to our sins. But even in a temporal sense, the only way we can know what another person deserves would be to read that person's soul. No matter how overwhelming the evidence, we can never presume to know how much another person's soul is weighed down by sin.

I think I am in line with Catholic teaching when I say this. But please forgive me; I am unfamiliar with the term "retributive justice." So please correct me if I'm wrong.