XIX Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618385' date='Aug 5 2008, 06:15 PM']The trouble I have with the idea of "how would you have liked to have been aborted" idea is that I would have never known. Yes, it is an emotionally charged idea that I could have never existed if I was aborted, but that doesn't prove anything because I would have never developed and become aware of the fact that I was terminated.[/quote] One could justify a painless murder by poison using your logic. I mean, if you never have any idea, and it hits you before you realize anything actually happened, then you won't ever know what it's like to be killed by poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='StColette' post='1618391' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:28 PM']So if the fetus isn't alive before birth, is it dead and somehow comes alive during birth? I'm just trying to understand your logic here. I mean if a fetus is only alive after birth then is the fetus dead during the all stages of pregnancy? If you would agree to this then how do you account for heartbeat, which is generally seen as a sign of something living at least according to Medical Dictionaries and Journals, respiration (yes fetuses use their respiratory systems during development), movement (believe me they are movers and shakers even at early weeks of development), and also what about neurological processes and responses? I'm just curious as to how you would explain these and what your definition of alive would be. I'm not meaning to attack you, so please don't take it that way, I'm just genuinely asking. God Bless, Jennie[/quote] Just because something is not living does not make it dead-for example, any non-living matter. I think where the difference of opinion occurs is that I don't believe in an immortal soul. So something can be a clump of cells, every cell is "living" by the standard that it has all the functions of a cell. However, I don't see a human as fully and functionally human until the point of birth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618412' date='Aug 5 2008, 05:11 PM']Just because something is not living does not make it dead-for example, any non-living matter. I think where the difference of opinion occurs is that I don't believe in an immortal soul. So something can be a clump of cells, every cell is "living" by the standard that it has all the functions of a cell. However, I don't see a human as fully and functionally human until the point of birth.[/quote] What about babies born early? Because there have been babies born as early as 21 weeks, I believe, that have lived. Would they be considered alive at the time of their birth, or when they "should've" been born? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1617869' date='Aug 5 2008, 03:14 AM']Well I'm sorry, but because I don't believe that the "clump of cells" inside the womb before birth is alive, I disagree that abortion is killing a baby. So you can sit and say it is murder all you want but I will always disagree, and in my world, I am correct. I can play the game too [/quote] So if its not alive its dead? I can go to a garage and call myself a car, but that doesn't make it so. Slicing and dicing babies kills it. Now you may argue that that particular size of a human being isn't worth much and the rights of its parents are more important, but you can't deny you are killing something that is alive. That is like trying to say something that is round is also a square, and that is utter nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='MissScripture' post='1618417' date='Aug 5 2008, 04:14 PM']What about babies born early? Because there have been babies born as early as 21 weeks, I believe, that have lived. Would they be considered alive at the time of their birth, or when they "should've" been born?[/quote] When it comes out of the womb and is able to survive reasonably normal circumstances, it is "alive" meaning that it is a functional human person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618428' date='Aug 5 2008, 06:32 PM']When it comes out of the womb and is able to survive reasonably normal circumstances, it is "alive" meaning that it is a functional human person.[/quote] Just rationalization to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618428' date='Aug 5 2008, 05:32 PM']When it comes out of the womb and is able to survive reasonably normal circumstances, it is "alive" meaning that it is a functional human person.[/quote] Just to clarify, you're saying that babies born early, who need large amounts of care (i.e. help breathing) are not alive yet? And what exactly constitues functional? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 just for the record, i disagree more with where fide is going with this than i do with others. tho, i might agree,,, as per what's more common sense early on, that a cell is not a baby, and agree maybe more with him there.... but still think it's uncertain and do ultimatley disagree with him. but as to saying, it's not a baby until it's born, i strongly disagree with. there's nothing magical about five seconds out compared to five seconds in. the point the baby coudl survive theoretically outta the womb is beginning ot be more reasonable,,, but if it's struggling to survive, it's still almost surely a full person. the only reasonable prochoice type position is for the early stages stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1618544' date='Aug 5 2008, 05:16 PM']just for the record, i disagree more with where fide is going with this than i do with others. tho, i might agree,,, as per what's more common sense early on, that a cell is not a baby, and agree maybe more with him there.... but still think it's uncertain and do ultimatley disagree with him. but as to saying, it's not a baby until it's born, i strongly disagree with. there's nothing magical about five seconds out compared to five seconds in. the point the baby coudl survive theoretically outta the womb is beginning ot be more reasonable,,, but if it's struggling to survive, it's still almost surely a full person. the only reasonable prochoice type position is for the early stages stuff.[/quote] Just for the record, I respect everyone's position here and I quite honestly don't care if I 'win' or 'lose' because it doesn't matter. I just want it to be known that I'm of a different opinion. And yes, I admit that where this is going is quite sloppy on my part. I apologize. However, I am not of this opinion because I want babies to be killed or anything like that. I would like to see abortion become obsolete and unnecessary and to have love win out. But I dont think abortion is the worst evil in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dairygirl4u2c Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618558' date='Aug 5 2008, 06:27 PM']And yes, I admit that where this is going is quite sloppy on my part. I apologize.[/quote] fair enough. i suppose i can agree it's not the worst problem in the world. at least with abortion at any state, there's quasi mitigating circumstnaces given the emotional stuff etc. point blank murder of an innocent person etc is just as if not worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618412' date='Aug 5 2008, 06:11 PM']Just because something is not living does not make it dead-for example, any non-living matter. I think where the difference of opinion occurs is that I don't believe in an immortal soul. So something can be a clump of cells, every cell is "living" by the standard that it has all the functions of a cell. However, I don't see a human as fully and functionally human until the point of birth.[/quote] So what occurs at the point of birth that would make something fully and functionally human? I mean if you don't believe in an immortal soul what makes a "clump of cells" go from not living to living when it is born? Is there something that occurs or is it just because the "clump of cells" is now outside of the womb? And if I may ask what is your complete definition of a human person? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StColette Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1618428' date='Aug 5 2008, 06:32 PM']When it comes out of the womb and is able to survive reasonably normal circumstances, it is "alive" meaning that it is a functional human person.[/quote] Not to be nitpicky but there are some cases where perfectly healthy babies are born and die shortly after birth, does this mean they weren't living when they were born because it was unable to survive reasonably normal circumstances? Also what about babies who are born during partial birth abortions? If a child's entire body is delivered during a partial birth abortion doctors are not allowed to kill the baby and must do everything medically in their power to save the baby's life. If a doctor was to go ahead with the abortion and kill the baby when it is completely out of the womb then that doctor would be charged with murder, even if the baby has no chance of survival. Which given your definition of something being alive the child born during partial birth abortion would not be alive because it has no chance of survival. I guess I'm having trouble seeing how you considered a baby at say 41 weeks inside the womb as not living but a baby who is born and outside the womb at 41 weeks alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kujo Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 (edited) [img]http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b361/AlycinAnn/Addelyn/AddieLifePoster.jpg[/img] Addelyn Berru, about 7 months old. Edited August 6, 2008 by kujo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisieux Flower Posted August 6, 2008 Share Posted August 6, 2008 (edited) sweet pic! Edited August 6, 2008 by Lisieux Flower Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didymus Posted August 6, 2008 Author Share Posted August 6, 2008 sorry to hijack my own thread.. [quote name='Socrates' post='1616694' date='Aug 3 2008, 10:18 PM']What if some sicko were to propose that rape be legalized and universally protected by law? "How can you possibly be pro-rape?" you exclaim in horror. "Oh, don't get me wrong," the man answers, "I'm not pro-rape. Personally, I'm against rape. I think it's a terrible thing to do to a woman, and I'd certainly never rape a woman myself. However, whether to rape a woman is a man's choice to make, not the government's. A man has a right to choose what to do with his own body, and that decision is not the government's to make. I'm not pro-rape. I'm pro-choice." Would you humor this guy by agreeing to refer to his position on rape as "pro-choice," or would you call it out for the offensive nonsense that it is? (You can also substitute murder, theft, or any other serious crime here and get the same idea.) Abortion is an even more serious evil than rape, so what is it that makes the term "pro-choice" acceptable in the case of abortion?[/quote] This is a most excellent point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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