Affirmative Action

[Nihil Obstat]

I am extremely glad about the replies here.
These things are all my first impressions of the policy, but I didn't think I was clear enough about any of it to contribute meaningfully.
Now I can say I'm against it without worrying that I'm inadequately informed and making a fool of myself.
Has there been any official Church statements about it?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1621828' date='Aug 8 2008, 04:42 PM']A friend of mine who works in the HR department of a large company in the US told me that the biggest change is that race is no longer allowed on application forms. She said it didn't really matter anyway. Her boss routinely throws away resumes from Latishas and Kwame's, and puts Jacob, Michael, Alice and Mary at the top of the call back pile.[/quote]
:bugeye:

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1621991' date='Aug 8 2008, 07:19 PM']There is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" and people should stop using this appalling term. This is a false term that was invented to refer to black racism against white people. But by using this phrase it's like saying that only blacks are discriminated AGAINST, as if this is an injustice that is uniquely theirs. As if the very words "racism" or "discrimination" are meant solely for them. There is no such thing as "reverse" discrimination. There is only [i]discrimination[/i], period. It begs the question, The reverse of [u]what[/u]?[/quote]
Well, I know that this is not what "reverse discrimination" is supposed to mean, but it almost sounds like it should mean "favoritism." "Reverse" means the opposite of something and "discrimination" means... well, discrimination. The reverse of discrimination is favoritism.

How 'bout just judging applicants based on their qualifications?

[Nihil Obstat]

Well whatever you call it, 'reverse discrimination' has come to mean, to most people, racism. The only difference is that saying reverse discrimination is specifically stating that this is racism against white people.
Although after hearing the argument, I won't use the term anymore.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1621998' date='Aug 8 2008, 06:41 PM']i see your point, but i think you're being too PC, too nitpicky. blacks are the one who are generally discriminated against. in trying to not have them discriminated against with AA, we're essentially discriminating against the whites who lose out in the deal.
if direct discrimination against whites were more common,,, maybe using that phrase, reverse discrimination, would be less appropriate, cause it causes minds to think blacks are the ones who get the heat. reality is though, that they are largley,,, and that's why we have AA,,,and that's why we should be concerned for what i said in my lat paragraph.
in fact, just saying discrimination is occuring to the white,,, could be said to be more misleading,, as if hteir plight is just as bad as the blacks. the only plight they have, significantly, is the result of our trying to fix everything.
so basically,,, the phrase more accurately portrays reality, whereas what you desire does not.[/quote]

Me?? PC?? That's a joke.

It has nothing to do with being nitpicky or anything else. There is simply no such thing as reverse racism and using the phrase sounds like blacks are the only people who are discriminated against. It's a silly phrase and makes no sense.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' post='1622880' date='Aug 9 2008, 05:12 PM']How 'bout just judging applicants based on their qualifications?[/quote]

That's all we sane-minded people are asking for.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1621998' date='Aug 8 2008, 06:41 PM']i see your point, but i think you're being too PC, too nitpicky. blacks are the one who are generally discriminated against. in trying to not have them discriminated against with AA, we're essentially discriminating against the whites who lose out in the deal.
if direct discrimination against whites were more common,,, maybe using that phrase, reverse discrimination, would be less appropriate, cause it causes minds to think blacks are the ones who get the heat. reality is though, that they are largley,,, and that's why we have AA,,,and that's why we should be concerned for what i said in my lat paragraph.
in fact, just saying discrimination is occuring to the white,,, could be said to be more misleading,, as if hteir plight is just as bad as the blacks. the only plight they have, significantly, is the result of our trying to fix everything.
so basically,,, the phrase more accurately portrays reality, whereas what you desire does not.[/quote]

After reading your reply again, I don't think you understood what I was saying. I was trying to figure out where you would get "you're being PC" from, since I am the least PC person in the world. Re-reading your comments, I can see you didn't get what I was trying to explain. But nevermind. Reverse discrimination/racism is a ridiculous phrase because no such thing exists. It's like saying "that orange orange". It's no more necessary to refer to an orange as "orange" than it is to refer to discrimination with an adjective.

[Guest Perpetua]

I'm completely against affirmative action right now. I'm a college sophomore, and when I was applying a few years ago, I saw a few articles about it. I know there was a school in Michigan who had to get rid of 'race quotas', they did the point system that someone mentioned earlier, which is also illegal (even though it's on our northern border, you'd be surprised how racist some people in that state can be, including my grandmother). I'm all for private organizations giving scholarships based on heritage, but keep the government out of it.

What I think they should do is give out more money based on if you live in a poorer neighborhood. That way you get the same basic idea of helping those who have the odds stacked against them b/c of their circumstances, without the racism.

Edited August 10, 2008 by Perpetua

[Nihil Obstat]

The only thing I've heard in support of affirmative action that approaches intelligence is this:
minorities, coming from a different culture, naturally do not identify as well with interviewers for jobs, education, etc, as a person coming from their own racial group. By the nature of their different heritage, the interviewer and the applicant may have differences that make the interviewer assume they are not as qualified, though they may be equally so.
In theory, affirmative action still carrying on today is supposed to rectify that.

HOWEVER
I think that sounds like a load of garbage, myself.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1623857' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:15 AM']The only thing I've heard in support of affirmative action that approaches intelligence is this:
minorities, coming from a different culture, naturally do not identify as well with interviewers for jobs, education, etc, as a person coming from their own racial group. By the nature of their different heritage, the interviewer and the applicant may have differences that make the interviewer assume they are not as qualified, though they may be equally so.
In theory, affirmative action still carrying on today is supposed to rectify that.

HOWEVER
I think that sounds like a load of garbage, myself.[/quote]


It does sound like a load of garbage. We're all American. I don't buy this "different heritage" nonsense, like we're talking about foreigners or something.

[Hassan]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1621313' date='Aug 8 2008, 10:50 AM']I have to agree with Madame. There was a time where it was necessary to equal things up, but that time has passed.[/quote]

What time has past? When there was gross inequality between the black and white populations in the United States?

I wouldn’t base it purely on race, but certain forms of affirmative actions should absolutely be allowed. The idea that a black kid from the South Bronx going to an inner city school with a 4.0 GPA shouldn’t be given a leg up over a rich white kid who got tutors and a world class teachers is silly. Similar considerations should be given to a white kid who was born in a bad neighborhood with horrid schools.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1623922' date='Aug 11 2008, 06:29 AM']It does sound like a load of garbage. We're all American. I don't buy this "different heritage" nonsense, like we're talking about foreigners or something.[/quote]

Are you denying that there is a black culture?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1623857' date='Aug 11 2008, 12:15 AM']The only thing I've heard in support of affirmative action that approaches intelligence is this:
minorities, coming from a different culture, naturally do not identify as well with interviewers for jobs, education, etc, as a person coming from their own racial group. By the nature of their different heritage, the interviewer and the applicant may have differences that make the interviewer assume they are not as qualified, though they may be equally so.
In theory, affirmative action still carrying on today is supposed to rectify that.

HOWEVER
I think that sounds like a load of garbage, myself.[/quote]


Was your high school majority white?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1623933' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:08 AM']Was your high school majority white?[/quote]
Irrelevant. Decline to comment.
This isn't something I learned in school, nor did I form my opinions based on anything I learned or experienced in school.

[dominicansoul]

Just for the record,

I'm Hispanic and "affirmative action" has never helped me one bit in my lifetime...

I'm glad, because I like to believe I've achieved what I've achieved on my own merits (and of course, by the grace of God!)

[mommas_boy]

I dunno. I think that white privilege still exists. It's mostly institutional now, based on the unfair structures of society, rather than the bigotry of employers or educators. I think that it's fair to say that, for the most part, bigotry in the work place is gone, but I think that unfair societal structures still tend to dictate that people in a specific class will stay in that class because they lack the resources to move up in the class hierarchy.

In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.

I think that affirmative action for education is a good thing. After having received an education, I like to think that the playing field has been leveled, and there is no need for affirmative action in the work place. Not sure about this though.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630236' date='Aug 17 2008, 10:39 PM']I dunno. I think that white privilege still exists. It's mostly institutional now, based on the unfair structures of society, rather than the bigotry of employers or educators. I think that it's fair to say that, for the most part, bigotry in the work place is gone, but I think that unfair societal structures still tend to dictate that people in a specific class will stay in that class because they lack the resources to move up in the class hierarchy.

In regards to race, I think that class boundaries tend to align themselves with race because races of color started out in lower classes in America and haven't been able to pull themselves out [b]yet[/b] because of those societal structures. There are exceptions, but my own observations and education tell me that that is the rule.

I think that affirmative action for education is a good thing. After having received an education, I like to think that the playing field has been leveled, and there is no need for affirmative action in the work place. Not sure about this though. [/quote]
I guess it depends on who we listen to more, right?
I mean... I'm not out there in lower class neighbourhoods, or watching any people from a particular minority group trying to get a job or get into university, so I don't have an opinion that I develop of my own observations. Not really. At least not one that covers everything.
That's why I asked. There is a huge range of experience and knowedge on this website. People know things... and they tell me!

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1630286' date='Aug 18 2008, 12:34 AM']I guess it depends on who we listen to more, right?
I mean... I'm not out there in lower class neighbourhoods, or watching any people from a particular minority group trying to get a job or get into university, so I don't have an opinion that I develop of my own observations. Not really. At least not one that covers everything.
That's why I asked. There is a huge range of experience and knowedge on this website. People know things... and they tell me! [/quote]

Indeed, I do think it depends on who we listen to more. That's why I'm happy that you asked.

I think that I tend to come off as a bleeding-heart to my conservative friends, but a staunch traditionalist to my more liberal ones. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in when these types of conversations crop up, and I'm always very reluctant to say anything because of it. But still, I can't help but chime in. I've had a lot of varied experiences, and listened to a lot of people so-to-speak. So, talking to people who don't share my experiences is always uncomfortable for me, but I've learned to live with being uncomfortable.

I hope that you weren't offended by my post in the least; I sensed a certain amount of defensiveness in your reply, and it wasn't my goal to be antagonistic. You have the right attitude, and I just want to make sure that it stays that way, little bro. <scruffles hair>

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1630306' date='Aug 17 2008, 11:55 PM']Indeed, I do think it depends on who we listen to more. That's why I'm happy that you asked.

I think that I tend to come off as a bleeding-heart to my conservative friends, but a staunch traditionalist to my more liberal ones. It's a very uncomfortable position to be in when these types of conversations crop up, and I'm always very reluctant to say anything because of it. But still, I can't help but chime in. I've had a lot of varied experiences, and listened to a lot of people so-to-speak. So, talking to people who don't share my experiences is always uncomfortable for me, but I've learned to live with being uncomfortable.

I hope that you weren't offended by my post in the least; I sensed a certain amount of defensiveness in your reply, and it wasn't my goal to be antagonistic. You have the right attitude, and I just want to make sure that it stays that way, little bro. <scruffles hair>[/quote]
Ooh, no no. There was no defensiveness in my reply. No, I really liked your post!
I sorta went off into one of my daydreamy little ramblings.
Apparently the two sound the same.

It's interesting... that you find yourself in that situation. The way things are for me, basically all of my friends are apathetic or socialist. Or both. Young people tend to be that way. Uncomfortable for me as well. They make a heck of a lot of assumptions knowing I'm conservative.
Just out of curiosity, since when did being conservative mean I "don't care about the poor"? I always did wonder about that one. Maybe someday I'll figure that little tidbit out.
It's all about experience, I think. There's certain things that maybe people like me, or maybe you will never understand. I don't think I'll ever really understand what it's like to be a dirt poor starving person under a dictatorial regime. I guess people like me will just have to do our best to listen to people who maybe do have an idea about that. Or at least people who have an idea because they talked to people who have a better idea?
After all, we'll never know all that much about our world. We'll do our best, and we'll learn a lot of things, but we can't approach knowing everything.
So we try (who cares that we won't 'succeed'? It's not the poing anyway.), and we do some good things along the way.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1623931' date='Aug 11 2008, 08:03 AM']What time has past? When there was gross inequality between the black and white populations in the United States?

I wouldn’t base it purely on race, but certain forms of affirmative actions should absolutely be allowed. The idea that a black kid from the South Bronx going to an inner city school with a 4.0 GPA shouldn’t be given a leg up over a rich white kid who got tutors and a world class teachers is silly. Similar considerations should be given to a white kid who was born in a bad neighborhood with horrid schools.[/quote]

I was the poor white kid from an inner city school with the 4.0 GPA. No way my parents were going to be able to send any of us to college. A black kid shot and killed a white kid in the hallway when I was a freshman. It led to weeks of race riots. My high school was 50/50 white/black. The leg ups I was given were based on financial need, not the color of my skin. They were open to any of my classmates who were similarly poor. My highschool was so poor that the only advanced science they offered was one year of chemistry taught by a special ed instructor. No physics, no advanced placement stuff, but lots of vo tech classes. I would have loved it if they had affirmative actioned some money into our school system, but we had so much white flight, that they took their big houses that paid good tax money with them when they left. Just because you're black doesn't mean you are poorer or dumber.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1630437' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:05 AM']Just because you're black doesn't mean you are poorer or dumber.[/quote]

Agreed. It's a class issue.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1630437' date='Aug 18 2008, 11:05 AM']I would have loved it if they had affirmative actioned some money into our school system, but we had so much white flight, that they took their big houses that paid good tax money with them when they left.[/quote]

This is why I support money from education coming from state-wide income taxes, rather than local property taxes. These disparities start getting really bad in the Chicago area, because you have the urban schools that are so close to the affluent suburban schools that you start to scratch your head at the inequalities.