Masturbation Always A Mortal Sin?

[Justin86]

[url="http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm"]http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm[/url]

[quote]2352[b] [/b]By [i]masturbation [/i]is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action." "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

[b]To form an equitable judgment about the subjects' moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.[/b][/quote]
The portion I put in bold seems to cast doubt that masturbation always a mortal sin in my mind. Hmmmm.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Justin86

[CatherineM]

If a man is having to produce a sample for a doctor, then obviously that isn't a mortal sin. If you are dealing with a youngster who doesn't know any differently, or a person that doesn't have the mental capacity to understand what they are doing, then again I couldn't see that as a mortal sin.

[mommas_boy]

The three criteria for whether or not an action is a mortal sin are:
[list=1]
[*] the act is gravely wrong;
[*] the subject knows/believes the act to be gravely wrong;
[*] and the subject is able to freely and willing choose to do the action anyway.
[/list]
Immaturity speaks to point two, force of habit to point three. The "providing a sample" situation changes the purpose of the action from selfish stimulation to a matter of health that can be accomplished no other way, and so is an issue of point one.

Always use these three criteria in determining when an action is a mortal sin.

[Justin86]

Actually, my understanding is doctors never need someone to masturbate.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='Justin86' post='1621297' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:40 AM']Actually, my understanding is doctors never need someone to masturbate.[/quote]

Really, how do they collect a semen sample for things like sperm counts? Needles down there sound very scary, man ...

[Justin86]

Some sort of condom used during intercourse that the Church doesn't consider a contraceptive device. I remember reading it in something written by Christopher West.

Edited August 8, 2008 by Justin86

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1621303' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:42 AM']Really, how do they collect a semen sample for things like sperm counts? Needles down there sound very scary, man ...[/quote]

Ok. Wikipedia has this to say about morally acceptable methods of sperm collection:

[indent]
A sample may also be collected during intercourse in a special type of condom. Collection condoms are made from silicone or polyurethane, as latex is somewhat harmful to sperm. Many men prefer collection condoms to masturbation, and some religions prohibit masturbation entirely. Adherents of religions that prohibit contraception, such as Catholicism, may use collection condoms with holes pricked in them.
[/indent]

The citation on the Catholicism part is "John and Sheila Kippley, The Art of Natural Family Planning". Not sure if it has imprimatur for this statement. But, basically, the idea is that by pricking holes in a condom, a couple is still "open to the possibility of life". Is this moral?

Next option:

[indent]
Such a sollection is called per cutaneous epididymal sperm aspiration (PESA). Alternatively, the testicular tissue itself, instead of the sperm produced can be investigated. Then, the collecting method is called TESE.[6]
[/indent]

PESA does involve a needle. TESE sounds as though it would require at least a needle, if not surgery. But, this option does seem to be the most moral.

[Deb]

Hasn't this subject been, um, talked about a lot already?

[-I---Love]

Sperm is collected with a condom from marital sex. How would masturbating for a medical reason all of a sudden be moral? It wouldn't...isn't.

[LouisvilleFan]

Good choice of words, Deb...

And regarding the first criteria for mortal sin, masturbation obviously concerns grave matter. What we don't know are the second two criteria and that paragraph of the Catechism bolded in the original post is simply offering some advice concerning how the second two criteria would apply to this specific sin.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='-I---Love' post='1621903' date='Aug 8 2008, 05:23 PM']Sperm is collected with a condom from marital sex. How would masturbating for a medical reason all of a sudden be moral? It wouldn't...isn't.[/quote]

You're correct. My point earlier was that if there were no other way of collecting sperm, masturbation for medical reasons, while still immoral, might be seen as the lesser of two evils. Since there is another way that I didn't know about at the time of my initial posting, I have revised my position.

Thanks!

[CatherineM]

What if the person needing the specimen taken isn't married? There are other valid reasons for needing a specimen than fertility, such as under court order.

[mommas_boy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1622107' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:24 PM']What if the person needing the specimen taken isn't married? There are other valid reasons for needing a specimen than fertility, such as under court order.[/quote]

Under court order, I can't imagine why a sperm sample would be required when a swab of cheek epithelials would suffice to provide DNA. Unless you're familiar with something that I'm not?

[Justin86]

Where this topic has gone to reminds my of a shipmate I had a while ago in the Navy named "Seaman Sample".

Edited August 9, 2008 by Justin86

[CatherineM]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1622169' date='Aug 8 2008, 09:22 PM']Under court order, I can't imagine why a sperm sample would be required when a swab of cheek epithelials would suffice to provide DNA. Unless you're familiar with something that I'm not?[/quote]

Has to do with secretors/non-secretors, and some men actually have a different blood type semen/blood. It's amazing what one can learn by reading death penalty trial transcripts.

[Veritas]

+

There is a lot of misinformation above. Masturbation is ALWAYS, objectively, a mortal sin. One's culpability may be lessened (as with any sin) due to one's knowledge, free-will, etc.

However, masturbating even for any so-called medical reasons, is NOT acceptable. This is a black and white issue.

[Veritas]

[quote name='mommas_boy' post='1622006' date='Aug 8 2008, 06:53 PM']You're correct. My point earlier was that if there were no other way of collecting sperm, masturbation for medical reasons, while still immoral, might be seen as the lesser of two evils. Since there is another way that I didn't know about at the time of my initial posting, I have revised my position.

Thanks! [/quote]

+

I don't think this is a case of "lesser of two evils". An objective mortal sin, is an objective mortal sin. For example, an abortion whether performed surgically or chemically is not more acceptable in one way than the other -both are horrible and not permissible. I worry when the "lesser of two evils" phrase is used that it attempts to express a false notion of acceptability.

[Veritas]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1621291' date='Aug 8 2008, 10:32 AM']If a man is having to produce a sample for a doctor, then obviously that isn't a mortal sin. If you are dealing with a youngster who doesn't know any differently, or a person that doesn't have the mental capacity to understand what they are doing, then again I couldn't see that as a mortal sin.[/quote]

+

I am afraid you are mistaken Both of these cases are mortal sins. Again, one's personal culpability may be lessened and that is what is meant by "equitable judgement".

In reference to the original post, there is no doubt. That it always and everywhere wrong is the constant teaching of the Church. God Bless.

[lilac_angel]

In certain circumstances, the Catechism states that culpability can be "reduced to a minimum." That certainly sounds a lot more like venial sin than mortal. Of course, that would require [b]very[/b] special circumstances, in my opinion. The Catechism isn't specific that it's always mortal in every single case no matter what the circumstance.

[prose]

[quote name='Veritas' post='1622282' date='Aug 8 2008, 11:27 PM']+

There is a lot of misinformation above. Masturbation is ALWAYS, objectively, a mortal sin. One's culpability may be lessened (as with any sin) due to one's knowledge, free-will, etc.

However, masturbating even for any so-called medical reasons, is NOT acceptable. This is a black and white issue.[/quote]

That is what I thought too.