Valid Consecration

[Apotheoun]

The CCEO, as the Melkite Catholic Patriarch has indicated, establishes practices that are contrary to Eastern ecclesiology, and in so far as it does that it is not valid. Even Cardinal Kasper has indicated that the CCEO has only temporary validity pending the reunion of the Orthodox Churches.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1699866' date='Nov 11 2008, 09:51 PM']On this issue we are not going to agree. My Church holds that there have been seven ecumenical councils, and that we are bound by those councils, but the councils held by the Roman Church in the second millennium are particular synods of the Latin Church and only apply to that sui juris ecclesial body.[/quote]


Were that true, the Maronites would not have professed that:

"I venerate also and accept all the other universal Synods which have been lawfully held and confirmed by the authority of the Roman Pontiff, and especially the Synod of Florence...

Likewise, I revere and accept the Council of Trent, and I profess what was defined and declared in it, and especially that there is offered to God in the Mass a true, proper, and propitiatory sacrifice, for the living and the dead, and that in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist, in accordance with the faith that had always been in the Church of God, there is contained truly, really, and substantially the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and hence the whole Christ, and that there is made a change of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, which change the Catholic Church most fittingly calls transubstantiation, and that under each species and in each single part of each species, when a division is made, the whole Christ is contained." (DS 2534 - 2535)

Edited November 12, 2008 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1699873' date='Nov 11 2008, 08:00 PM']Were that true, the Maronites would not have professed that:

"I venerate also and accept all the other universal Synods which have been lawfully held and confirmed by the authority of the Roman Pontiff, and especially the Synod of Florence...[/quote]
The Maronites are a heavily Latinized Church, what their hierarches do -- even though I think it is foolish -- is their own business.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1699868' date='Nov 11 2008, 09:53 PM']The CCEO, as the Melkite Catholic Patriarch has indicated, establishes practices that are contrary to Eastern ecclesiology, and in so far as it does that it is not valid. Even Cardinal Kasper has indicated that the CCEO has only temporary validity pending the reunion of the Orthodox Churches.[/quote]

Following your logic, someone who assists at the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite regularly could deny that the deacon is an ordinary minister of Holy Communion even though the CIC says that the deacon is, simply because the deacon was not an ordinary minister of that Sacrament in 1962. This however, would be simply ridiculous. And regardless of whether Canon Law agrees with traditional practice, it is legally binding.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1699886' date='Nov 11 2008, 08:07 PM']Following your logic, someone who assists at the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite regularly could deny that the deacon is not and ordinary minister of Holy Communion even though the CIC says that the deacon is, simply because the deacon was not an ordinary minister of that Sacrament in 1962. This however, would be simply ridiculous. And regardless of whether Canon Law agrees with traditional practice, it is legally binding.[/quote]
What Roman Catholics do in their liturgy is their business.

[Resurrexi]

This doesn't have anything to do with whether people follow their liturgical traditions, it has to do with throwing out doctrinal statements and saying some parts Canon Law are invalid. It doesn't seem much different than "Cafeteria Catholics" who will say that they believe in the Trinity, but don't believe in the Real Presence, or who accept that we must participate in the Mass every Sunday, but who consider it acceptable at the present for a married man to be ordained a Latin priest.

[Apotheoun]

Resurrexi,

You and I approach the Christian mystery from different theological and spiritual traditions, and so we are not likely to agree about doctrinal matters when you try to apply Scholastic or other Western categories of thought to the deposit of faith. Such is life. Some Roman Catholics have a tendency to equate being Catholic with being Latin, but I refuse to accept that proposition.

I believe in many things that you would probably find scandalous (e.g., the real distinction in God between essence and energy, the doctrine of [i]theosis[/i] whereby a man becomes uncreated by grace, the idea that God's energies are not identical among themselves, and the doctrine that the Holy Spirit as person proceeds from the Father alone and not from or through the Son, etc.), but I am not going to reject the doctrinal tradition of the Eastern Fathers simply because you have a restrictive and erroneous view of what is really Catholic.

God bless,
Todd

Edited November 12, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1699893' date='Nov 11 2008, 08:16 PM']This doesn't have anything to do with whether people follow their liturgical traditions . . .[/quote]
I am not the "follower of a particular liturgical tradition"; instead, I am a member of a self-governing Catholic Church. The Eastern Catholic Churches are not reducible to "rites."

[Resurrexi]

This is a very interesting poll.

[Nihil Obstat]

I'm sorry everyone. It's my fault he resurrected this thread.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1902208' date='Jun 26 2009, 12:41 PM']I'm sorry everyone. It's my fault he resurrected this thread. [/quote]

This thread deserved to be resurrected. It is a well-phrased poll.

[Marie-Therese]

If we had a nickel for every time this "how many Councils are valid" brawl came up, we could pay off the national debt.

Why don't we just schedule a ring, charge admission, and let you two duke it out? We could take all the money and then dUSt would pay off all his expenses. The board would prosper, and we could take down the sidebars, and peace would reign upon the earth.

Come on, Rex and Apo, would you do it for the betterment of our world? East v. West in a battle for the ages? A Holy cage match? My Council is bigger than your Council?

Of course, I'm kidding. Or am I.....

Btw, this was a great poll until the thread was hijacked.

[Nihil Obstat]

This thread is so old that hijacking is valid.

At least that's how it should work.