What I Think

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1636887' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:07 PM']Let's get down to the nitty-gritty basics. Forgive me for being crude. If men were supposed to have sex with other men, they wouldn't naturally do it through their anus. It makes no sense naturally (even if we take God out of the picture). In no way is it natural for that to happen.
Just as it is the eye's function to see, it is the anus' function to dispose of waste.[/quote]


Exactly.

And the female homosexuals, they are in an even more confusing situation.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1636871' date='Aug 24 2008, 05:43 PM']Homosexuality is contrary to natural law. Incest is simply immoral.[/quote]

Right. I think there could be an argument also that incest is against natural law, too. I wonder if even among the lower animals there are cases of relations trying to mate with each other. I have genuinely never heard of such a thing. It is as if God created animals (lower and higher) to not even have the URGE or ATTRACTION to mate with their siblings (and other closely related blood relatives). So therefore, any who do it are in defiance of natural law and truly deviant.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1636908' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:28 PM']Right. I think there could be an argument also that incest is against natural law, too. I wonder if even among the lower animals there are cases of relations trying to mate with each other. I have genuinely never heard of such a thing. It is as if God created animals (lower and higher) to not even have the URGE or ATTRACTION to mate with their siblings (and other closely related blood relatives). So therefore, any who do it are in defiance of natural law and truly deviant.[/quote]

My Godmother raised standard sized poodles. She had a son mate with his mother accidentally because they were in the same pen at the wrong time, and obviously couldn't sell the resulting puppies. I got one of them, and by the age of 5 he was deaf, and by 7 he was also blind and had to be put down.

As to lesbians, I was so sheltered from such things, that I didn't actually understand what they were, or what they did together, until my husband explained it to me. I just thought they were women who didn't like men, and lived together like nuns or something. So the whole thing makes no sense to me at all.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Noel's angel' post='1636856' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:32 PM']Yeah, especially when people take the time to reply to every point, writing long explanatory posts, and all they can reply with is a one-liner which is unrelated to the topic.[/quote]

Pretty much... its easier that way I guess...


[quote name='Hassan' post='1636855' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:31 PM']You miss the point silly.

Homosexuality is morally deranged for the same reason God considers the ingestion of shell fish an abomination.

The reason these things are morally wrong is because they clearly are,
that is they clearly are to anyone who is not morally bankrupt/insane,
and we can tell who is not morally bankrupt by how clearly they see that the perquisite litmus test for moral coherence,
which is the recognition that the moral issues in question are clearly wrong,
which we know are in fact wrong because we recognize them as wrong thus proving our moral coherence,
thereby affirming the moral depravity of the actions in question
(which is clearly wrong).

Clear as crystal and shiny as a brand new dime [/quote]

This is a twisting and misrepresentation of my argument, as are your other posts, it also conveniently omits the argument based on natural procreation. And no if someone supports incestuous unions no their argue should not be taken seriously. If you make that argument no one will take you seriously. You've added nothing to this debate but irrelevant twisting and misrepresentation of other arguments.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1636949' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:05 PM']As to lesbians, I was so sheltered from such things, that I didn't actually understand what they were, or what they did together, until my husband explained it to me. I just thought they were women who didn't like men, and lived together like nuns or something. So the whole thing makes no sense to me at all.[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1636881' date='Aug 24 2008, 06:52 PM']The parts I underlined support non-religious [b][i][u][size=7][color="#FF0000"]claims[/color][/size] [/u][/i][/b]against homosexuality and incest.[/quote]


exactly, CLAIMS they are claims and nothing more.

If you wish to believe homosexuality and incest are morally wrong that is fine. It's not hurting anyone (well, except the tormented souls who are brought up to beleive these claims and slit their wrists after being unable to choose between finding loveing, sexual human relationships but being an hell bound sinner who's relationship is an abomination before God, or liveing a solitary life without experiencing a healthy sexual relationship with another human). I find incest repulsive as well, however I recognise this as a psychological reaction that has not scientific or rational validity in modern times aside from possible adverse implications for a child. I would consider it wrong for this couple to bring a child into the world given the genetic risks, but that's what BC is for.

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1636965' date='Aug 24 2008, 07:15 PM']Pretty much... its easier that way I guess...[/quote]

I did respond to your post. I see you unsupported claims about the natural law with my unsupported claims about panda tears




[quote]This is a twisting and misrepresentation of my argument, as are your other posts,[/quote]


It really was not directed at any particular post here. It was a general satire.

[quote]it also conveniently omits the argument based on natural procreation.[/quote]
No it does not, as it was not adressing any specific thing in your post

[quote]And no if someone supports incestuous unions no their argue should not be taken seriously.[/quote]

Yes, so you say. It's is one of your many, many unproven claims on this subject

[quote]If you make that argument no one will take you seriously. You've added nothing to this debate but irrelevant twisting and misrepresentation of other arguments.[/quote]

no, there was nothing to this argumnt to start with. Just unsupported speculation and SWAG's

[KnightofChrist]

Tell you want Hassan when you can respond point for point, we can have a discussion, but all you can now is misrepresent my argument which is not worth responding to.

Peace!

[Hassan]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1637009' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:39 PM']Tell you want Hassan when you can respond point for point, we can have a discussion, but all you can now is misrepresent my argument which is not worth responding to.

Peace![/quote]
Fine


What exactly do you want me to respond to. I give you my word I will respond point by point

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636998' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:31 PM']It's not hurting anyone (well, except the tormented souls who are brought up to beleive these claims and slit their wrists after being unable to choose between finding loveing, sexual human relationships but being an hell bound sinner who's relationship is an abomination before God, or liveing a solitary life without experiencing a healthy sexual relationship with another human).[/quote]

Catholics certainly do not teach [i]anyone[/i] that homosexuals are hell bound sinners. We love homosexuals. We love everybody. We despise sin, of course. We despise the sin of homosexual relations because it is contrary to natural law and contrary to God's law (although they are one and the same). Just as a homosexual person can not engage in these acts, I can not engage in sex or sexual acts before I'm married (if I ever get married, that is). And since a homosexual person can not get married, they can not engage in these acts. Ever. Period. Amen.

[quote]but that's what BC is for.[/quote]

Opening a new can of worms, my friend.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636998' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:31 PM']exactly, CLAIMS they are claims and nothing more.

If you wish to believe homosexuality and incest are morally wrong that is fine. It's not hurting anyone (well, except the tormented souls who are brought up to beleive these claims and slit their wrists after being unable to choose between finding loveing, sexual human relationships but being an hell bound sinner who's relationship is an abomination before God, or liveing a solitary life without experiencing a healthy sexual relationship with another human). I find incest repulsive as well, however I recognise this as a psychological reaction that has not scientific or rational validity in modern times aside from possible adverse implications for a child. I would consider it wrong for this couple to bring a child into the world given the genetic risks, but that's what BC is for.[/quote]
Practicing sodomy is not part of a "healthy sexual relationship".

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1637015' date='Aug 24 2008, 07:46 PM']Catholics certainly do not teach [i]anyone[/i] that homosexuals are hell bound sinners.[/quote]

I was clear to say the gay individuals relationship was seen as an abomination

[quote]We love homosexuals.[/quote]

I love Catholics. But I hate your religion. I despise it. It is a wicked, disgusting, vulgar and repugnant things that in a just world would be obliterated such that not a trace of this abomination of a religion would be left. The thought of it makes me sick because it is such a disgusting thing.

How is that to hear? Not to nice perhapse?

(I don't actually believe that about Catholicism btw I have most of the current Pope's books and have great respect for much of your religion. I am just trying to make a point)

[quote]We love everybody.[/quote]

That is nice to hear. I don't think it helps the gay teen Catholic who is taught that his love for his boyfriend is disordered and expressing that love physically is an abomination before God. I am not gay, but I have seen a bit of the hell that is the lives of so many gay teens

[quote]We despise sin, of course.[/quote]

fine

[quote]We despise the sin of homosexual relations because it is contrary to natural law and contrary to God's law (although they are one and the same).[/quote]

So you say.

[quote]Just as a homosexual person can not engage in these acts, I can not engage in sex or sexual acts before I'm married (if I ever get married, that is).[/quote]

With respect, that's not even close to a comparison. You are not told your feelings are disordered. You do not have to grow up knowing that you will have to choose between risking your immortal soul to the physical unending torture of the hell you will be sent to by the loveing God by trying to express love through sexual relations, or living a life devoid of sexual contact of a loveing relationship.



[quote]And since a homosexual person can not get married, they can not engage in these acts. Ever. Period. Amen.[/quote]

Glad you find such a major impact on so many lives so clear and black and white despite any actual evidense.



[quote]Opening a new can of worms, my friend.[/quote]

you know it

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1637021' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:55 PM']Practicing sodomy is not part of a "healthy sexual relationship".[/quote]

You are free to believe that.

Edited August 25, 2008 by Hassan

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636998' date='Aug 24 2008, 07:31 PM']If you wish to believe homosexuality and incest are morally wrong that is fine. It's not hurting anyone (well, except the tormented souls who are brought up to beleive these claims and slit their wrists after being unable to choose between finding loveing, sexual human relationships but being an hell bound sinner who's relationship is an abomination before God, or liveing a solitary life without experiencing a healthy sexual relationship with another human).[/quote]

Wow, several spelling mistakes.

And, well, you can't seem to tell the difference between disagreeing with someone's behaviour and loving them. Were you ever disciplined as a child? Didn't you realize that your parents were telling you were misbehaving but they still loved you. I guess not!

Edited August 25, 2008 by MakeYouThink

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1637054' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:18 PM']Wow, several spelling mistakes.

And, well, you can't seem to tell the difference between disagreeing with someone's behaviour and loving them. Were you ever disciplined as a child? Didn't you realize that your parents were telling you were misbehaving but they still loved you. I guess not![/quote]

LOL.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1636738' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:46 PM']definitely the highpoint of the debate... for although we continue to disagree, at least there is common ground and understanding a good start to conversation

all you need is love, yes. how do you express your love? well, we submit that love needs to be expressed in ways that are compatible with our human nature (evidenced by our biological bodies)... love ought to flow through natural means of mating. incest is biologically horrible because of the narrowing of the gene pool and increase of genetic diseases, homosexuality is biologically wrong because of

a brother and a sister ought to definitely love each other. ought of genuine love for each other, they ought not to engage in physical intimacy ever.

same with any two men. it's great to have two men that love each other, and you don't see nearly enough truly deep, close, and loving friendships between men in our culture (which is one reason homosexuality becomes so prevalent, as there is a genuine need for deep male friendships that doesn't get filled because of the walls built around the male sex in our culture)... but they ought not to use their anuses to stimulate those that they love and unnaturally stimulate their own prostate (it simply is not healthy to stimulate the prostate that way, nor to put such force through the rectal tissue)... they ought not attempt to stimulate each other sexually.

let me pose this question, because I like the "all you need is love" theme. IF all you need is love, why must you also have sexual satisfaction? you can believe that all you need is love and still limit sexual activity to the act which puts the sperm where it was designed to go, into an unrelated human female. and then you can see the start of a journey of love which is beautifully designed into our biology: a love that is so excessive that it overflows into an entirely new person (a baby) and exponentially increases between each other and the newborn each time it spills over into the generation of a new life. that's the beautiful model of love; and all models of love detached from this biological plan amount to self-centered spirals... not so much self centered on the self, but self centered on the couple... ie the one is centered on only the other and the other centered on only the one; rather than the type of overflowing love that focuses itself outwards towards the family that it generates.

plenty of straight people do not follow this model of love, and plenty of gay people attempt their hardest to mimic it and I have to say I respect the gays that try to mimic it much more than the straights who try to hide from it... but in the end the mimicing of it is just not nearly the same (and by mimicing, I mean those in sexual relationships who seek adoption) as the awesome experience of love expressing itself through nature.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
al, i just have to say this is a great post. thank you

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1636874' date='Aug 24 2008, 04:46 PM']he made a host of unverifiable claims, it's not right, it's not wrong, it's just a series of unsupported metaphysical claims he pulled out of the air.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
did you even read al's very well thought out post? (quoted above)

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:01 PM']I was clear to say the gay individuals relationship was seen as an abomination.[/quote]

Actions can be an abomination, but the person is still loved by God.

If that wasn't true, every single human being deserves nothing less than hell. Not just homosexuals!

BTW, I am guilty of every kind of sin out there, including saying something was of God that wasn't! I am the worst of sinners, and I don't deserve the mercy God has shown me.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:01 PM']I love Catholics. But I hate your religion. I despise it. It is a wicked, disgusting, vulgar and repugnant things that in a just world would be obliterated such that not a trace of this abomination of a religion would be left. The thought of it makes me sick because it is such a disgusting thing.

How is that to hear? Not to nice perhaps?

(I don't actually believe that about Catholicism btw I have most of the current Pope's books and have great respect for much of your religion. I am just trying to make a point)[/quote]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:01 PM']That is nice to hear. I don't think it helps the gay teen Catholic who is taught that his love for his boyfriend is disordered and expressing that love physically is an abomination before God. I am not gay, but I have seen a bit of the hell that is the lives of so many gay teens.[/quote]

I wonder if how many people who committed vehicular manslaughter because they were alcoholic's would have loved hearing someone telling them the way they lived their lives was an abomination before God, before they killed a 5 year old because they had that 15th beer at the bar, and it was only 8 pm!

All I can say, is there is a right way to do things, and a wrong way to do things. I know, from your posts, you don't believe that. So, why do you make yourself a target on this board? People here believe living right is important, and it is our conscience that tells us what is right and what is wrong, not the Bible, though the Bible helps form it more clearly.

The whole problem is, people need to acknowledge they need to submit to God, and become a sacrifice to him and to all people.

Do you know how many homosexual friends I have, lots. I enjoy they're company because they are people too. But I don't agree with what they do in the bed room. But hey, that doesn't matter in friendship. How many people agree with 100 per cent of all the things they're friends do, but still remain friends.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:01 PM']With respect, that's not even close to a comparison. You are not told your feelings are disordered. You do not have to grow up knowing that you will have to choose between risking your immortal soul to the physical unending torture of the hell you will be sent to by the loving God by trying to express love through sexual relations, or living a life devoid of sexual contact of a loving relationship.[/quote]

Well, which is better, a boyfriend that might leave him, or a God who never will if that young homosexual boy who decides, Lord, if you would be willing to sacrifice all, I will too!

[quote name='Hassan' post='1637026' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:01 PM']Glad you find such a major impact on so many lives so clear and black and white despite any actual evidence.[/quote]

Funny, very funny. The person you are commenting about is one of the more intelligent people I have meet on these boards, and yet you consider her a robot? If you knew the person you were talking too, you wouldn't make such a stupid comment!

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1637087' date='Aug 24 2008, 09:37 PM']+J.M.J.+
did you even read al's very well thought out post? (quoted above)[/quote]

Indeed his is an better argument than mine.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1637061' date='Aug 24 2008, 08:21 PM']LOL. [/quote]

You liked that one, didn't you!