Homeopathy

[lilac_angel]

I'd venture to say that some natural "remedies" don't work and some do, just as some medications work for some people and others do not.

I did some research about those homeopathic tinctures (just on the web) and from what I read, I'm a little skeptical.

However, I don't believe that [u]all[/u] natural therapies don't work, just because a certain category of them may not. They don't have to be made in a factory to be beneficial. Take carrots, for example.

edit: I just saw that the person above distinguished between naturopathic and homeopathic remedies. Which may render most if not all of my post obsolete. Ah well.

Edited January 14, 2009 by lilac_angel

[Innocent]

Thanks for your contribution, Lilac_Angel. It was really good of you to spend time reading up on Homeopathy just to respond to this thread.

I hasten to clarify that I'm not against natural remedies. In fact, I eat carrots almost every day.

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1751415' date='Jan 15 2009, 06:10 AM']edit: I just saw that the person above distinguished between naturopathic and homeopathic remedies. Which may render most if not all of my post obsolete. Ah well.[/quote]


Actually, I (the OP) too, have taken great pains to distinguish between homeopathy and naturopathy several times in this thread.

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I suppose my mistake was to fail to state this in the first post of this thread. At that time, I assumed that this distinction was clear to everyone.

I really wish people would not assume that I'm trying to say that thread was created with the purpose of implicitly stating that only medicines made by pharmaceutical MNCs are worth taking. I'm really at a loss to understand what it was that I said that gives people this impression.


At times like this, I really wish that Phatmass allowed us to edit older posts. I would go to the first post in this thread and state clearly that this thread is not concerned with natural remedies at all but only with Homeopathy.

It's unfortunate for the purposes of discussion that Homeopathy and Naturopathy which evidently are quite distinct fields with different underlying principles should be so easily conflated in popular perception.

(I think Homeopathy should be considered a class by itself, and not placed along with other branches of alternative medicine that use naturally occurring substances as medicines. )



Oh, well, life's like that!

Edited January 15, 2009 by Innocent

[Innocent]

I found this blog post while surfing the net today:


[url="http://www.foothills.wjduquette.com/blog/archives/1647"]Any Sufficiently Advanced Technology…[/url]

So based on that, since we don't understand the mechanism of Homeopathy ( at least, [b]I[/b] don't understand it ) it must be either a very highly advanced technology or ... magic?

But again, referring to the post linked to in the above link: [url="http://m-francis.livejournal.com/45598.html"]The Nature of Magic[/url]

That blogger lists three types of knowledge (as understood in the Middle Ages) as below:

[b][size=1]Knowledge - Causes are[/size][/b]

[size=1]Art - manifest - Know how

Magic - occult - Know somehow

Superstition - nonexistent - post hoc/propter hoc[/size]

So, I was trying to see where Homeopathy fits in. Since the basics of its workings are not clear, it's surely not Art. Thus, at best it is, according to this Middle Age terminology, occult (Magic) and at worst it is superstition.

Edited May 6, 2009 by Innocent

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1751805' date='Jan 15 2009, 03:33 AM']Thanks for your contribution, Lilac_Angel. It was really good of you to spend time reading up on Homeopathy just to respond to this thread. [/quote]

What I meant was, I already knew what homeopathy was. I had researched it at an earlier date.

[quote]I suppose my mistake was to fail to state this in the first post of this thread. At that time, I assumed that this distinction was clear to everyone.

I really wish people would not assume that I'm trying to say that thread was created with the purpose of implicitly stating that only medicines made by pharmaceutical MNCs are worth taking. I'm really at a loss to understand what it was that I said that gives people this impression. [/quote]

I guess everyone makes assumptions at times. I probably made this assumption because it was typical for me to encounter, in the past, people who were very black and white about pharmaceuticals vs. all natural meds, while not being very well versed in the terminology of the latter.

I'm sorry I didn't read the whole thread more thoroughly; I'm sure that would have helped.

[quote]It's unfortunate for the purposes of discussion that Homeopathy and Naturopathy which evidently are quite distinct fields with different underlying principles should be so easily conflated in popular perception. [/quote]

Indeed, they are, and generally I haven't found many religious who were into naturopathy, let alone those who embraced naturopathy but not homeopathy. So thus I may have jumped to the conclusion that you didn't like either.

[quote](I think Homeopathy should be considered a class by itself, and not placed along with other branches of alternative medicine that use naturally occurring substances as medicines. )[/quote]

I agree. haha it's been forever since I've looked at this thread, sorry..

Edited May 16, 2009 by lilac_angel

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Innocent' post='1859448' date='May 6 2009, 08:40 AM']I found this blog post while surfing the net today:


[url="http://www.foothills.wjduquette.com/blog/archives/1647"]Any Sufficiently Advanced Technology…[/url]

So based on that, since we don't understand the mechanism of Homeopathy ( at least, [b]I[/b] don't understand it ) it must be either a very highly advanced technology or ... magic?

But again, referring to the post linked to in the above link: [url="http://m-francis.livejournal.com/45598.html"]The Nature of Magic[/url]

That blogger lists three types of knowledge (as understood in the Middle Ages) as below:

[b][size=1]Knowledge - Causes are[/size][/b]

[size=1]Art - manifest - Know how

Magic - occult - Know somehow

Superstition - nonexistent - post hoc/propter hoc[/size]

So, I was trying to see where Homeopathy fits in. Since the basics of its workings are not clear, it's surely not Art. Thus, at best it is, according to this Middle Age terminology, occult (Magic) and at worst it is superstition.[/quote]
Interesting ideas... I've wondered at one point if there was something there that we just don't understand... it's sort of a leap of faith though.

[Innocent]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1868258' date='May 16 2009, 07:05 AM']I agree. haha it's been forever since I've looked at this thread, sorry..[/quote]

Thanks for searching out the thread and responding even if after a long time. Quite decent of you!

[Innocent]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1871522' date='May 20 2009, 11:06 AM']Interesting ideas... I've wondered at one point if there was something there that we just don't understand... it's sort of a leap of faith though.[/quote]

SMM, where do you think Homeopathy lies in that spectrum?

By the way, I made an interesting discovery today: This book which has a limited preview on Google Books: [url="http://books.google.co.in/books?id=6MCWXx7H6_EC&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=homeopathy&source=bl&ots=4rEvt_1-kl&sig=Qaj5aWP_k4ZgePhxtUBvRuhF6jY&hl=en&ei=lwQZSvncD5D26gOi8qSvDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#PPA1,M1"]Homeopathy: The Great Riddle - By Richard Grossinger[/url]

The first chapter about the nature of homeopathy "the medicine of an unknown science." and also speaks about its roots in various philosophies like vitalism and hermeticism. Makes for interesting reading if you have the time to go through the preview.

While surfing the web, I came across this YouTube video of one Homeopath asking, [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10VhvCQjYUI"]"Was Moses the 1st Homeopath?"[/url] (There's something interesting in this video. (Other than, of course, the proposition that Moses was a Homeopath.) It claims that seven popes have been supportive of Homeopathy.)

Edited May 24, 2009 by Innocent

[jeffpugh]

Interesting I'll try to formulate an answer later.

[Marie-Therese]

Well...

As an RN, I can tell you that I have seen all sorts of things in practice. There is a divergence, I think, between what people practice as Homeopathy (as in Homeopathic practitioners) and in herbal medicine, which some people call homeopathic. I guess you could call it a big H little h disagreement.

Big H homeopathy is, to be polite, a well-researched New Age con job. There's just enough sound science to make it appear to the average person who is not medically trained as if it has some basis in fact. The principle of distilling weak "disease" in order to treat diseases? Well, that is called good old fashioned vaccination. When a person is exposed to weakened/distilled (or, as we call them, attenuated) versions of an illness, the human body produces antibodies which enable the immune system to quickly recognize and attack that illness should one ever be exposed again in future. This is good science and well proven. However, to then say that water and alcohol somehow have memories and vibrations is, well, complete and utter nonsense. These sheisters know how to take advantage of people and do it well. They have to keep you coming back.

Little h homeopathy, on the other hand, is the informed use of natural products as medicinal. Very sound and valid. However, you have to take care that the substance being used is correctly dosed, properly administered, and suitable for that person's particular circumstances. For example, willow bark can be chewed straight from the tree to relieve a headache. You can also go and take that same substance, called acetylsalicylic acid, from the drugstore. It's called aspirin. However, the aspirin in the bottle is tested for potency and dosed in regular reliable amounts. Chewing willow bark, while it is the same substance, could be dangerous because you have no way of knowing how much you got, and aspirin can thin the blood, which could be dangerous. You get the idea. I routinely used little h homeopathy while I was in oncology treating chemo-induced nausea. A lot of the fancy anti-nausea drugs would not be effective and had side effects like drowsiness. Instead, I'd start them on high dose liquid Zingiber officinale. In layman's terms, that is ginger ale. Ginger does wonders for upset tummies. A little warm ginger ale and saltines would work wonders where an 8 mg Zofran would fail miserably.

So there's my take on the topic, fwiw.

[jeffpugh]

Well, as much as asprin is from white willow bark, it's not [i]just [/i]white willow bark. And it's been altered, too. It's not natural. I've heard it can be damaging over time, and I'm not talking about overdosing. But yeah, I tend to lean away from Homeopathy nowadays. On another note: does the body really [i]need [/i]to be alkaline? That's the next biggest "fad" in "alternative" medicine (so I hear).

[Innocent]

Thanks for your reply, Marie-Therese.

[quote name='Marie-Therese' date='26 June 2009 - 01:41 AM' timestamp='1245957069' post='1901343']


......
Little h homeopathy, on the other hand, is the informed use of natural products as medicinal. Very sound and valid. However, you have to take care that the substance being used is correctly dosed, properly administered, and suitable for that person's particular circumstances. For example, willow bark can be chewed straight from the tree to relieve a headache. You can also go and take that same substance, called acetylsalicylic acid, from the drugstore. It's called aspirin. However, the aspirin in the bottle is tested for potency and dosed in regular reliable amounts. Chewing willow bark, while it is the same substance, could be dangerous because you have no way of knowing how much you got, and aspirin can thin the blood, which could be dangerous. You get the idea. I routinely used little h homeopathy while I was in oncology treating chemo-induced nausea. A lot of the fancy anti-nausea drugs would not be effective and had side effects like drowsiness. Instead, I'd start them on high dose liquid Zingiber officinale. In layman's terms, that is ginger ale. Ginger does wonders for upset tummies. A little warm ginger ale and saltines would work wonders where an 8 mg Zofran would fail miserably.
....

[/quote]

But I'm confused. Why would you want to call this "small h homeopathy" when it involves neither the Law of Similars nor the level of dilution Homeopathic remedies use? Granted, you take into account the individual patient, and you regluate the dilutions according to the needs of the individual, but I wonder if that's enough to call it Homeopathy.

What you've described as 'small h homeopathy' seems to be what is generally called herbal therapy. Wouldn't it be better to call it Herbalism? That way it would be less confusing. Wikipedia has [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbalism"]an article on Herbalism[/url] and the "Herbal Philosophy" section seems to be similar to what you've written.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Innocent,

Nice topic. My opinion is that homeopathy is a delusional pseudoscience founded upon superstitious rubbish (e.g., serial dilution). I find it to be most unfortunate that so many Catholics that I know embrace it.

Regards.

[Jesus_lol]

this is pretty much the best video about homeopathy, also pretty funny!
http://www.videosift.com/video/Homeopathic-A-E-Mitchell-Webb

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='27 September 2009 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1254079178' post='1973393']
this is pretty much the best video about homeopathy, also pretty funny!
http://www.videosift.com/video/Homeopathic-A-E-Mitchell-Webb
[/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='27 September 2009 - 02:30 PM' timestamp='1254076209' post='1973373']
Innocent,

Nice topic. My opinion is that homeopathy is a delusional pseudoscience founded upon superstitious rubbish (e.g., serial dilution). I find it to be most unfortunate that so many Catholics that I know embrace it.

Regards.
[/quote]
L_D has spoken