What Bush Has Done For The Pro-life Cause In America

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636399' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:03 AM']Well, I don't know, it depends on where you live. I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor where virtually no one owns a gun for anything and there's about an average of 1 murder a year. I listen to the news on TV all coming from Detroit and you can guaruntee that once each week you're going to hear about a murder that was different from the last one. I was just watching it not too long ago tonight and the local MSNBC affiliate in Detroit was doing a segment on homeless people being brutally beaten to death for fun by normal people like you and me, right on the street.[/quote]
In my city I have good reason to believe that there is a full scale gang war on right now. There've been drive bys and many shootings just recently... when knife murders used to be far, far more common than gun crime.
I tend to agree with MakeYouThink (although that doesn't seem to happen often. ) that a lot of muders these days (in the West) are going to be revolving around organized crime. Look at the news. Random murder is very very rare. Almost always it's drug or gang related.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636399' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:03 AM']Well, I don't know, it depends on where you live. I live in the People's Republic of Ann Arbor where virtually no one owns a gun for anything and there's about an average of 1 murder a year. I listen to the news on TV all coming from Detroit and you can guaruntee that once each week you're going to hear about a murder that was different from the last one. I was just watching it not too long ago tonight and the local MSNBC affiliate in Detroit was doing a segment on homeless people being brutally beaten to death for fun by normal people like you and me, right on the street.[/quote]

Yeah, right. If people go out and kill homeless people on the street, they are not normal like you or me! If a group of people like that go out, it is discrimination, like the KKK! Are members of the KKK who murder minorities just like you or me? NO! I consider the KKK or the groups of normal people who kill homeless people on the street nothing less the a serial killers anonoymous club! They have no decency and the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong, and therefore meet all the criteria of serial killer in my eyes. But these are not the majority of people who kill people!

When I turn on the news, in Toronto, there has been a lot of murders for the past couple of years, and it was gang warfare that is the cause, and drugs was the means for them to continue to commit violence!

I know you are well meaning, but I am talking about the percentages. The death penalty will not deter those involved in organized crime or the drug trade because they believe they have enough money to escape justice, and it will not deter serial killers, and these are the groups of people who constitute the most murders. If I am mistaken, someone please show me stats of who constitutes the most murders!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1636413' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:11 AM']In my city I have good reason to believe that there is a full scale gang war on right now. There've been drive bys and many shootings just recently... when knife murders used to be far, far more common than gun crime.
I tend to agree with MakeYouThink (although that doesn't seem to happen often. ) that a lot of muders these days (in the West) are going to be revolving around organized crime. Look at the news. Random murder is very very rare. Almost always it's drug or gang related.[/quote]

Okay, that's good and fine. I don't know exact statistics so I'm not going to speak on that. All I'm trying to say is that our court system has gone to the dogs with this mentality that you can't punish anybody. Somebody gets convicted, they go for an appeal, and then some judge lets them go. Until we get these useless judges out of our courts, can't we at least make a legal provision that keeps us safe. As I said before, the Church's teaching on capital punishment is nuanced and allows it in a situation in which we need to protect ourselves from murderers. If these gangs keep killing, getting convicted of crimes, and getting locked up, then why is violence allegedly happening more often? Can't we lock 'em up faster than they can grow and spread? It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636423' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:19 AM']Okay, that's good and fine. I don't know exact statistics so I'm not going to speak on that. All I'm trying to say is that our court system has gone to the dogs with this mentality that you can't punish anybody. Somebody gets convicted, they go for an appeal, and then some judge lets them go. Until we get these useless judges out of our courts, can't we at least make a legal provision that keeps us safe. As I said before, the Church's teaching on capital punishment is nuanced and allows it in a situation in which we need to protect ourselves from murderers. If these gangs keep killing, getting convicted of crimes, and getting locked up, then why is violence allegedly happening more often? Can't we lock 'em up faster than they can grow and spread? It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.[/quote]
Yea, well I'm not going to argue with that. Not saying I *necessarily* agree. Just not willing to get into this debate at the moment.
Just thought I should throw my little bit in.
It's true, the position is nuanced... I'm not going to pretend to have my mind made up.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1636421' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:17 AM']Yeah, right. If people go out and kill homeless people on the street, they are not normal like you or me! If a group of people like that go out, it is discrimination, like the KKK! Are members of the KKK who murder minorities just like you or me? NO! I consider the KKK or the groups of normal people who kill homeless people on the street nothing less the a serial killers anonoymous club! They have no decency and the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong, and therefore meet all the criteria of serial killer in my eyes. But these are not the majority of people who kill people!

When I turn on the news, in Toronto, there has been a lot of murders for the past couple of years, and it was gang warfare that is the cause, and drugs was the means for them to continue to commit violence!

I know you are well meaning, but I am talking about the percentages. The death penalty will not deter those involved in organized crime or the drug trade because they believe they have enough money to escape justice, and it will not deter serial killers, and these are the groups of people who constitute the most murders. If I am mistaken, someone please show me stats of who constitutes the most murders![/quote]

Well, as well-meaning as you are with wanting to correctly compartmentalize people (nothing wrong with it), I just don't think it's the law's job to psychoanalyze them. It's our job to put them away, and if a liberal court system isn't willing to put them away for good or at least until they can get their act together, then what do YOU propose we do to keep people safe from repeat offenders?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote]It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.[/quote]

There actually are, where I am. It's reaching a crisis, I think.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636423' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:19 AM']Okay, that's good and fine. I don't know exact statistics so I'm not going to speak on that. All I'm trying to say is that our court system has gone to the dogs with this mentality that you can't punish anybody. Somebody gets convicted, they go for an appeal, and then some judge lets them go. Until we get these useless judges out of our courts, can't we at least make a legal provision that keeps us safe. As I said before, the Church's teaching on capital punishment is nuanced and allows it in a situation in which we need to protect ourselves from murderers. If these gangs keep killing, getting convicted of crimes, and getting locked up, then why is violence allegedly happening more often? Can't we lock 'em up faster than they can grow and spread? It's not like there are hundreds of gang members running around in one place.[/quote]

You're American right.

The Prison population of your country is about 3-4 million people, one out of a hundred. Many of which are there because of a traffic ticket, or they were caught with a joint, so they go to jail for a month!

Should we kill them too?

The reason why the appeals system works so well it isn't liberal judges but judges knowing that the system is way overfull right now, so they have to let people go so others can replace them!

And to your question, some of the largest gangs in North America equal into the thousands, like the Hells Angels gang, and many have hundreds in them. They band together for protection and to commit more crime!

It's no longer the gang of 5-6 guys at a corner anymore. That would be one corner of about 5 or 6 blocks that gang controls. Since we have have about 12 groups of guys in the that kind of area, you're talking about 60-70 guys, and that would be what most are like in these days. That is why the police come in force when they raid the 'head quarters' of these criminals, because they know they will be armed better than they are, and they might be dealing with lots of people!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1636431' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:25 AM']There actually are, where I am. It's reaching a crisis, I think.[/quote]

Wow.

Well, the law inforcement in your area has its work cut out for them.

Really, I'm sorry to hear that.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636429' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:24 AM']Well, as well-meaning as you are with wanting to correctly compartmentalize people (nothing wrong with it), I just don't think it's the law's job to psychoanalyze them. It's our job to put them away, and if a liberal court system isn't willing to put them away for good or at least until they can get their act together, then what do YOU propose we do to keep people safe from repeat offenders?[/quote]

The people who are repeat offenders, would be most likely, the drug traffickers.

Unfortunately, even though I would love to see them pay for all the lives they destroy and the people they murder, I know in reality, that is not going to happen in this land of greed and lust for power.

So, unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what I would want, but I just have to accept the people who really need their butts kicked will be free for the next while.

The only thing I can propose is wait, and let God deal with them, either to bring them to repentance so they will never be involved in that area of life again, or to bring judgment on them for living they way they do!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1636433' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:27 AM']You're American right.

The Prison population of your country is about 3-4 million people, one out of a hundred. Many of which are there because of a traffic ticket, or they were caught with a joint, so they go to jail for a month!

Should we kill them too?

The reason why the appeals system works so well it isn't liberal judges but judges knowing that the system is way overfull right now, so they have to let people go so others can replace them!

And to your question, some of the largest gangs in North America equal into the thousands, like the Hells Angels gang, and many have hundreds in them. They band together for protection and to commit more crime!

It's no longer the gang of 5-6 guys at a corner anymore. That would be one corner of about 5 or 6 blocks that gang controls. Since we have have about 12 groups of guys in the that kind of area, you're talking about 60-70 guys, and that would be what most are like in these days. That is why the police come in force when they raid the 'head quarters' of these criminals, because they know they will be armed better than they are, and they might be dealing with lots of people![/quote]

Okay, that's terrible. . . .


. . . . but what do you propose we DO about it?

There are people who want to build more prisons. If you take an arial view of the US, there's more uninhabited, not farming, but uninhabited land than there is populated land. There's plenty of space to build them, and it makes no sense to build prisons near people where if prisoners escape, they have some warm, fresh meat waiting to be sliced, diced, and perforated (if you catch my drift), and if the government can pay for a bunch of useless filth like a crucifix submerged upside-down in a jar of urine (call it...art), then there's no reason why we can't build more prisons.

There are also people who vehemently oppose this. Their rationale is. . . . um, well, yeah. . . .

So, what DO you propose we do (that is, if you're not in favor of more prisons)?

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='MakeYouThink' post='1636438' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:33 AM']The people who are repeat offenders, would be most likely, the drug traffickers.

Unfortunately, even though I would love to see them pay for all the lives they destroy and the people they murder, I know in reality, that is not going to happen in this land of greed and lust for power.

So, unfortunately, it really doesn't matter what I would want, but I just have to accept the people who really need their butts kicked will be free for the next while.

The only thing I can propose is wait, and let God deal with them, either to bring them to repentance so they will never be involved in that area of life again, or to bring judgment on them for living they way they do![/quote]

Well. . . . you're right. It doesn't really matter what you want. That's not what I'm asking. I want an idea from you.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636442' date='Aug 24 2008, 02:34 AM']Okay, that's terrible. . . .


. . . . but what do you propose we DO about it?

There are people who want to build more prisons. If you take an arial view of the US, there's more uninhabited, not farming, but uninhabited land than there is populated land. There's plenty of space to build them, and it makes no sense to build prisons near people where if prisoners escape, they have some warm, fresh meat waiting to be sliced, diced, and perforated (if you catch my drift), and if the government can pay for a bunch of useless filth like a crucifix submerged upside-down in a jar of urine (call it...art), then there's no reason why we can't build more prisons.

There are also people who vehemently oppose this. Their rationale is. . . . um, well, yeah. . . .

So, what DO you propose we do (that is, if you're not in favor of more prisons)?[/quote]

First, don't throw people with traffic tickets into jail. That doesn't happen in Canada, but happens a lot in the states. I would probably say about 20-30 per cent of the prison population are people who got caught with drugs they were going to use themselves and not sell or have traffic tickets. Problem solved. Make them pay they're fines, even sue them and do wage garnishment to make them pay they're fines, but don't throw them into jail. How are they going to pay fines if they can't go to work?

[Justin86]

Somehow, I really don't believe most of the people in American jails are there for traffic tickets.

That being said I could see legalizing marijuana under the premise that it would greatly reduce the prison population, not to mention gang violence.

[qfnol31]

[Didymus]

[quote name='qfnol31' post='1635991' date='Aug 23 2008, 09:55 PM']As far as the Iraq War goes, the President was not the only person who supported us going to war. Hillary Clinton, John Kerry, and Joe Biden all voted to go to Iraq. And Bill Clinton was even in support of the Iraq War. Now they have all turned around and called it a mistake, blaming it all on the President as their scapegoat.[/quote]

wow, then that makes it totally okay.. how could you even make this argument?

[Fr. Bruno]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1636022' date='Aug 24 2008, 05:19 AM']And you realize of course the Obama will reverse every single item on this list as soon as he can.[/quote]

Unless enough people pray and fast for his conversion...
Maybe someone could start a poll on phatmass to find out how many would be ready for that kind of operation...

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='iheartjp2' post='1636382' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:49 AM']Read up on China where the government's killing people, forcing abortions on women, and sending old folks to "reeducation camps". You want heinous crimes? Go to Darfur and see how long you last [i]sans[/i] bodyguard. Why are people like you so willing to trash America for things that aren't even the fault of those who love this country? It's the liberals in and over our court systems who "love" America like John Edwards "loved" his wife who cause the problems.[/quote]

This is rich. Someone accusing ME of bashing America. Someone accusing ME of being in there with the liberals. Someone lecturing ME on forced abortions in China and genocide in Darfur. Some lecturing ME about the sacrifices our military makes for us. I'm the person who is one of the most vocal people on Phatmass about these issues. It's rich that you would try to drop these croutons on me, of all people. Dude, you know NOTHING about me.

And if you had read fully what I wrote, you would have noticed that when I said "heinous and horrible crimes" I SPECIFICALLY separated "abortion and genocide and things like that" from the kinds of crimes that occur on our streets in and our homes nearly every day.

And yes, I still have the right to judge the President's actions because I gave him my vote. My vote is not a joke. It is precious. Every American vote is precious. And if I feel that my vote has been betrayed by the one I gave it to, I have a right to my opinion. It's also called Free Speech which guarantees me the right to not only speak my mind but also to specifically criticize my government and its leaders. If you don't like that, blame the Constitution.

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1636368' date='Aug 24 2008, 01:44 AM']one of the worst things bush has done,,, is want to give large tax cuts even back when the economy was good. tax cuts at the expense of us going into debt.[/quote]

No, we're in debt b/c Bush has spent trillions of dollars on Iraq. We have public schools in Washington, DC that literally don't have heat in the winter. The kids go to class dressed for snow. This is not a joke. Because the city doesn't have the money to repair the heat and the federal government won't give it to them. But they've got trillions to spend in Iraq. This is what infuriates people. It's not about liberal verus conservative anymore. It's about facts.

We should have gone into Darfur where they are desperately pleading for America to help them, where every time a white journalist shows up in the refugee camps they think it means George Bush is coming to save them. This is a true story, not a joke. We should have gone into Darfur. They have begged and pleaded for their lives for America to save them and we have done NOTHING. It's a [i]shander[/i] on America that we didn't save Darfur but we were able to spend limitless resources on Iraq. It just makes me shudder.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Madame Vengier

[KnightofChrist]

Out of respect to the original poster I humble ask that we all stop high jacking this thread on off topic discussions. The original topic was Bush's Pro-Life record dealing with the unborn, and nothing else.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1636750' date='Aug 24 2008, 04:17 PM']Out of respect to the original poster I humble ask that we all stop high jacking this thread on off topic discussions. The original topic was Bush's Pro-Life record dealing with the unborn, and nothing else.[/quote]

Hey, I'm totally in favor! I liked it when we were actually talking about what the Bush Administration has done right as opposed to what the Bush Administration has allegedly "done wrong". I honestly don't even believe that when it comes to life issues that capital punishment or the war should even be included in the first place! The OPer wrote that Bush only signed off on ONE execution and as I've stated repetatively, we're not even using the legal provision to kill our offenders, so what does that matter? Abortion kills over a million people a year. The Iraq War has killed a little over 4000 people in the last 5 years. I'm sick of people claiming that the terrorists' problem with us was caused by Bush even though they've been killing our people overseas since before FORD was even in office. Those things pale in comparison to the slaughtering that's happening on our soil EVERYDAY. I'd love to get back to talking about how fabulously the Bush presidency has defended life instead of listening to the ranting of someone who voted for the Bush presidency before they were against it so that somehow legitimizes their criticism.