Making Abortion Illegal

[philothea]

Bonus points if you want to share how you think the decision will be made.

Most jurists agree (even the liberal ones) that Roe v. Wade was a bad ruling: weak, hard to justify, and liable to be overturned.

But first someone has to successfully challenge it. I thought the last few years offered one of the best chances: the federal partial-birth abortion ban both passed into law, and held up when brought before the supreme court. All it [i]might[/i] take now is for some state to pass a ban, and have it be challenged.

Nebraska passed such a law in 2006, but then revoked it. In the same year, Mississippi drafted one, but it got hung up in details and was never voted on. (I think some state legislatures need their hineys kicked!)

Other possibilities include a constitutional amendment specifically granting protection to unborn children, or another federal law. Haven't seen any real action there.

In my heart, though... I don't know if it will ever happen. I probably hang around too many vocal, atheistic feminists. They seem to value legal abortion above all else. While I sincerely hope otherwise, I find it hard to believe that abortion would ever be illegal nation-wide without some big cultural change.

(I would be delighted to be convinced otherwise!)

Edited September 9, 2008 by philothea

[CatherineM]

I don't think it will ever be illegal, but hopefully, unnecessary.

I think the best tact is to begin to make it expensive and less easy to obtain by forcing abortion clinics to meet the same basic requirements for code, sanitation, etc., that other outpatient surgery clinics have to maintain. This would put a bunch of places out of business. Many of them are just in it for the money, and if their profit margin was cut, they'd disappear.

The next would be to require the same parental notification for minors to obtain an abortion as they need to get a tattoo, better yet the same parental consent that is required for them to get stitches or a tooth pulled. Better also would be the requirement of the father of the baby to give consent as well.

Finally, total informed consent of the potential immediate and lifetime health issues that abortions can cause, and requiring the parents to see a 3D ultrasound of the child.

Just these things, required of any other surgical procedure, would drastically cut the number of abortions. Eventually, there wouldn't be any doctors around even trained in how to perform them.

[rkwright]

I have heard there was a memo that was circulated around the justice department during the 80's (Reagan terms) on how to overturn Roe v. Wade. It seems there may be something to it; Roberts and Alito came out of the justice department...

[philothea]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1651721' date='Sep 9 2008, 07:26 PM']I don't think it will ever be illegal, but hopefully, unnecessary.

I think the best tact is to begin to make it expensive and less easy to obtain by forcing abortion clinics to meet the same basic requirements for code, sanitation, etc., that other outpatient surgery clinics have to maintain. This would put a bunch of places out of business. Many of them are just in it for the money, and if their profit margin was cut, they'd disappear.

The next would be to require the same parental notification for minors to obtain an abortion as they need to get a tattoo, better yet the same parental consent that is required for them to get stitches or a tooth pulled. Better also would be the requirement of the father of the baby to give consent as well.

Finally, total informed consent of the potential immediate and lifetime health issues that abortions can cause, and requiring the parents to see a 3D ultrasound of the child.

Just these things, required of any other surgical procedure, would drastically cut the number of abortions. Eventually, there wouldn't be any doctors around even trained in how to perform them.[/quote]
All good points! Indeed, if there's no profit in it, it's not going to be available.

Already, I have heard it is hard to find doctors willing to perform abortions. Not surprising, really! (More surprising that any of them [i]will[/i].)

[fides quarens intellectum]

depending on who is elected, it could happen via Roe vs. Wade

if the pro-abort lands the presidency and appoints pro-aborts to SCOTUS, then it could happen with a constitutional amendment - maybe one like you outlined in the OP, or one similar to the proposition on Colorado's ballot, which would define "personhood" as all humans from the time of fertilization.

[eagle_eye222001]

[url="http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2006/SD/2006-11-08-abortion-ban_x.htm"]http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselect...rtion-ban_x.htm[/url]

In 2006 South Dakota citizens voted on what many view as an extreme ban on abortion where abortion would be illegal and provided no exception for rape, incest, or health of a women.

Unfortunately this measure failed as many SD citizens fell into the trap of relative morality that they felt the women should not be punished with a child as it was not her fault but the underlying leak in that is then a human life is lost out of convenience of the mother.


I bring this up because many people watched this vote, including I, to see if the "turn of the tide" had come. Maybe if this passed, then other states would make similar attempts. However, this bill suffered a crushing defeat and scared any state into making a similar attempt despite being a strict bill.

I am one of those people who believe the abortion issue will not be won by law, but by a gradual shift in our culture in understanding that there is a human life at stake. Already this has taken shape as the number of abortions in this country have decently fallen in the past 15 or so years. Ultrasounds have played a role to as you can now actually see the child growing and we as humans are able to identify with the child a lot easier. Women who had had abortions seem to stay largely silent, however, I believe we will begin to see more and more of them speak out on how they were either pressured, misinformed, or never properly informed and how they deeply regret their actions.

We have gotten the partial birth abortion ban. If a pregnant mother is in an accident and the baby dies, they can use the death of the baby as a charge sometimes. That is a big step there.

It seems to be slow, but I believe we are moving closer to banning abortions or at least a nation that is looking to avoid abortions altogether.

It is times like this I look at the Catholic Church's teaching on abortion and I am filled with pride of belonging to a church that has stood its ground in the face of popular culture and has not invented gray areas as some churches have but rather stuck to the truth and refused to adopt the theology of what is convenient.

I am not saying that we should only pursue an end to abortion solely by cultural information but rather we need to simultaneously keep up the Pro-Life March in D.C. and keep the pressure on Catholic politicians supporting abortion while looking to spread the realization that there is a human life at stake that should not be killed for convenience.

If I recall correctly, the big reason abortion won out in the Supreme court was because of the lack of science at the time. Obviously with ultrasound and what-not, we do have the science to understand what is happening in a baby's early weeks so actually the court's decision is out-dated and needs to be revisited.

That is another reason why it is so big for McCain to win. So Obama does not get a chance to nominate a supreme court judge.

[philothea]

Nice post, eagle_eye.

Maybe this is bad to say, but...

One long-term trend -- the fact that Catholics and other conservative Christians tend to have lots of children, while liberals quite often have none at all -- will slowly turn the tide as well.

(You have to wonder about people whose overall theory of family and society would lead, ultimately, to EXTINCTION... )

[CatherineM]

Eagleeye brought up a point about women coming forward who have had abortions. If a few lawsuits were pushed where a woman who had an abortion, and had medical complications sued the abortionists, not for the malpractice, but for the lack of informed consent, and if it could be made into a class action against planned parenthood, then you would see all sorts of women come out of the wood work. We have a very litigious society, and this could work against PP the way the clergy scandal was used against the church. Deep pockets are big targets.

[SpareTime]

[quote name='philothea' post='1651869' date='Sep 9 2008, 09:04 PM']Catholics and other conservative Christians tend to have lots of children, [color="#FF0000"][size=4]while liberals quite often have none at all [/size][/color][/quote]

That's a bit of a stretch. I know many, many, MANY more liberals with children than without. They often have far fewer children than Catholics, but that doesn't equate to "often have none at all."


I didn't know how to vote because I have two different opinions.

I think that a ban on abortion except in the case or rape or incest will probably come relatively quickly, in the next 5-10 years. I don't know if we'll ever see a total ban on abortion, though.

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
[quote name='CatherineM' post='1651721' date='Sep 9 2008, 05:26 PM']I don't think it will ever be illegal, but hopefully, unnecessary.

I think the best tact is to begin to make it expensive and less easy to obtain by forcing abortion clinics to meet the same basic requirements for code, sanitation, etc., that other outpatient surgery clinics have to maintain. This would put a bunch of places out of business. Many of them are just in it for the money, and if their profit margin was cut, they'd disappear.

The next would be to require the same parental notification for minors to obtain an abortion as they need to get a tattoo, better yet the same parental consent that is required for them to get stitches or a tooth pulled. Better also would be the requirement of the father of the baby to give consent as well.

Finally, total informed consent of the potential immediate and lifetime health issues that abortions can cause, and requiring the parents to see a 3D ultrasound of the child.

Just these things, required of any other surgical procedure, would drastically cut the number of abortions. Eventually, there wouldn't be any doctors around even trained in how to perform them.[/quote]
agreed.

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1651958' date='Sep 9 2008, 09:07 PM']Eagleeye brought up a point about women coming forward who have had abortions. If a few lawsuits were pushed where a woman who had an abortion, and had medical complications sued the abortionists, not for the malpractice, but for the lack of informed consent, and if it could be made into a class action against planned parenthood, then you would see all sorts of women come out of the wood work. We have a very litigious society, and this could work against PP the way the clergy scandal was used against the church. Deep pockets are big targets.[/quote]
good point

[havok579257]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1651721' date='Sep 9 2008, 07:26 PM']I don't think it will ever be illegal, but hopefully, unnecessary.

I think the best tact is to begin to make it expensive and less easy to obtain by forcing abortion clinics to meet the same basic requirements for code, sanitation, etc., that other outpatient surgery clinics have to maintain. This would put a bunch of places out of business. Many of them are just in it for the money, and if their profit margin was cut, they'd disappear.

The next would be to require the same parental notification for minors to obtain an abortion as they need to get a tattoo, better yet the same parental consent that is required for them to get stitches or a tooth pulled. Better also would be the requirement of the father of the baby to give consent as well.

Finally, total informed consent of the potential immediate and lifetime health issues that abortions can cause, and requiring the parents to see a 3D ultrasound of the child.

Just these things, required of any other surgical procedure, would drastically cut the number of abortions. Eventually, there wouldn't be any doctors around even trained in how to perform them.[/quote]


The problem with parental consent is that once a kid has a baby, legally she is an imancipated minor and does not need her parents permission for anything anymore. Even if she is say 14 or 13.

[Winchester]

Abortion makes money. It's about money.

Never. Not without revolt.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1652427' date='Sep 10 2008, 03:55 PM']The problem with parental consent is that once a kid has a baby, legally she is an imancipated minor and does not need her parents permission for anything anymore. Even if she is say 14 or 13.[/quote]

That needs to be changed, and could easily be done. A 13 year old who has already had a baby is only emancipated in regards to the child. They are still required to have parental permission for just about anything else, and are still required to do other stuff like go to school. A 13 year old mother isn't allowed to have a driver's license or vote. The ability to conceive a child has nothing to do with maturity, and if anything, it shows immaturity in a 13 or 14 year old. I'd love to see a law that the child of an unmarried minor is automatically in the custody of the grandparents or a ward of the state. If grandparents were required to pay child support until their child reached 18 years old, I'd bet parents would start paying more attention to where and what their kids were doing.

[SpareTime]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1652507' date='Sep 10 2008, 06:56 PM']That needs to be changed, and could easily be done. A 13 year old who has already had a baby is only emancipated in regards to the child. They are still required to have parental permission for just about anything else, and are still required to do other stuff like go to school. A 13 year old mother isn't allowed to have a driver's license or vote. The ability to conceive a child has nothing to do with maturity, and if anything, it shows immaturity in a 13 or 14 year old. I'd love to see a law that the child of an unmarried minor is automatically in the custody of the grandparents or a ward of the state. If grandparents were required to pay child support until their child reached 18 years old, I'd bet parents would start paying more attention to where and what their kids were doing.[/quote]

Where I live, if you get pregnant/ have a baby, you are not required to continue to go to school.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='SpareTime' post='1652589' date='Sep 10 2008, 07:17 PM']Where I live, if you get pregnant/ have a baby, you are not required to continue to go to school.[/quote]

That's because if they make single moms attend school, they have to provide child care. Many jurisdictions don't want that financial responsibility.



I figured I'd get slammed for the idea of making parents responsible financially for their kid's babies. In tort law, we learned that if a child (under 18) accidentally throws a baseball through a window, breaking it, the person with the broken window can only sue the child for damages. If the child intentionally throws the ball to break the window, the kid's parents can be sued for the damages. It's the difference between negligence, and intentional acts. Babies may sometimes be considered an accident, but the sex never is. Sex is an intentional act, the baby is the consequence. I see no reason why grandparents shouldn't be financially responsibility.

[Nihil Obstat]

Personal thought: I don't think abortion will be made illegal, as much as I really desire that to happen. I'm sorta pessimistic this way, but I see way too many people my age who are just too liberal.
Hopefully they stick with the trend and turn out... more conservative.

[princessgianna]

People's heart needs to change first~
if we make it illegal today and people's hearts stay the same then
it will go to the black market~
Pray that people's hearts change because just changing the law
won;t make a difference!

[Socrates]

Contrary to popular misinformed opinion, overturning Roe v. Wade and making abortion illegal are two separate issues.
Roe v. Wade was a bad ruling, legally as well as morally, and definitely should be overturned, though this will take some work to accomplish.
I think first it will have to be challenged by the states, though even comparatively "pro-life" states seem to have trouble getting anything passed.

People need to keep fighting the good fight, and not despairing, no matter how bleak things may look. There has been evidence that the tide of public opinion has slowly shifted somewhat to the pro-life side, but much work remains to be done.
If pro-lifers just resign themselves to "nothing will ever get done about abortion" and fall into apathy and despair, then this becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

And I think significant progress could be made if, for starters, all self-described "pro-life Catholics" actually would act and vote accordingly. I get sick of seeing seeing people call themselves "pro-life" and against abortion, yet politically support those very liberal democrats who do all in their power to perpetuate abortion. It's madness!

I agree that the most important thing in the pro-life battle is changing the culture and people's minds and hearts, however, this does not preclude fighting the battle for legal protection for the unborn. I've heard a lot of people on here through the years talk as though these are somehow mutually exclusive goals.
And the truth is that once the "culture" has significantly changed to pro-life, abortion WILL be illegal, as if we as a culture and civilization truly respect all human life, our laws will then reflect that.
Of course, abortion will never totally go away, just as murder of people already born, theft, rape, extortion, etc. will never completely go away - however in a civilized society, such things are recognized as crimes and the law enforced as best possible. Making abortion illegal is a matter of justice at its most basic. As I've said many times, if the law does not protect innocent human life at its most vulnerable, then it is worthless.

Edited September 11, 2008 by Socrates

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1652795' date='Sep 10 2008, 10:21 PM']And I think significant progress could be made if, for starters, all self-described "pro-life Catholics" actually would act and vote accordingly. I get sick of seeing seeing people call themselves "pro-life" and against abortion, yet politically support those very liberal democrats who do all in their power to perpetuate abortion. It's madness![/quote]
Madness! Madness I say!

I agree with everything you just said. I forgot to mention, no matter how pessimistic I am, I'm not going to give up. I'd love to be proven wrong.

[kenrockthefirst]

Even if Roe v. Wade were overturned, doesn't that simply kick it back to the states? In other words, overturning Roe v. Wade won't end abortion in the US because it would still be available in certain states. It would have to be banned at the federal level and I only see that happening via a constitutional amendment.