St. Peter And The Fight For The Keys

[Guest]

Peace DairyGirl,
So who do you think the one true church is then ?

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think per my beefs w the catholic church, i'd say the following:

papal infallibility = not super compelling of an argument, though formidable
eucharist = compelling and formidable, but still question remain
confession = compelling and formidable, and i honestly don't know how to address it other than to think maybe the catholic and orthodox churches are true, or-- that it's more in line with how prots interpet those 'lose sins' verses. i haven't done that exhaustive historical searches, though.


though, that said, as i saw in my archives, augustine doesn't cease to be a compelling figure for arguments from both catholics and prots:
[quote]Also here is Augustine's take on binding and loosing.
QUOTE
CHAP. 18.--THE KEYS GIVEN TO THE CHURCH.

17. He has given, therefore, the keys to His Church, that whatsoever it should bind on earth might be bound in heaven, and whatsoever it should loose on earth might be, loosed in heaven;(1) that is to say, that whosoever in the Church should not believe that his sins are remitted, they should not be remitted to him; but that whosoever should believe and should repent, and turn from his sins, should be saved by the same faith and repentance on the ground of which he is received into the bosom of the Church. For he who does not believe that his sins can be pardoned, falls into despair, and becomes worse as if no greater good remained for him than to be evil, when he has ceased to have faith in the results of his own repentance.[/quote]

the tone and flow, at least, seems more in line with prot notions.

Edited August 3, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[tinytherese]

My, this thread is old. It's been insightful as to how many Protestants think. I've wondered how they interpreted the verse as well.

[Archaeology cat]

So in a discussion on FB the topic of Peter and the keys came up, with Isaiah 22 and Matt 16 being mentioned. The other person then threw out Rev 3:7 [quote]7"And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:[/quote]

Now, I'm of the opinion that many prophesies are not either/or, but both/and, and so I could see Isaiah 22 as referring to both Peter (as shown in Matthew), and Jesus (in Revelation), but am curious as to what you guys think, or how to respond.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1939552' date='Aug 3 2009, 02:57 AM']i think per my beefs w the catholic church, i'd say the following:

papal infallibility = not super compelling of an argument, though formidable
eucharist = compelling and formidable, but still question remain
confession = compelling and formidable, and i honestly don't know how to address it other than to think maybe the catholic and orthodox churches are true, or-- that it's more in line with how prots interpet those 'lose sins' verses. i haven't done that exhaustive historical searches, though.[/quote]

Don't you ever feel... tired of this? Seems like you've been debating this stuff for as long as I've been on phatmass, which was when I was in RCIA over three years ago. What's keeping you from making up your mind already?

[Paddington]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1940327' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:43 AM']What's keeping you from making up your mind already?[/quote]

That covers me too.

Some things...I don't think Catholicism is perfect. I'm aware of some things about it that people who convert typically are not and typically deny. Then there are two bigger ideas that are "scandals" 1. "just believe" is not considered honest on many other things 2. Although all people are sinful, Hell seems too much.

And I've had "religious experiences" that do not seem Catholic. Even the most Catholic seeming one seems out of line by Catholic standards.

If you ask if I am "tired of this" then, yea I guess, but in many ways I like Catholicism.
And I don't want to go to Hell. Thanks to religion, I can waste my life, and not going to Hell (even by ceasing to exist) would make it all better.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1659985' date='Sep 20 2008, 01:42 AM']i don't see the illogic of eagle eye! In fact i see the logic and it makes sense!
he makes sense and points out various passages in the bible to back it up! As for as the catholic encyclopedia thing again eagle eye wrote what what he read and showed how you might have faltered! or read it wrong!

but your arguments to why he is wrong does not give a better or (possibly) more accurate interpretation. i don't see why you are having to result to telling eagle eye that this is a big boys and girls discussion! he states his point and offers a various bible passages and references to a way bigger degree that you are (with all due of respect)! eagle eye is addressing the issues at hand! I fail to see your attacks at him!

Pax~[/quote]


I agree completely with this comment.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Paddington' post='1940517' date='Aug 4 2009, 04:04 PM']Some things...I don't think Catholicism is perfect. I'm aware of some things about it that people who convert typically are not and typically deny. Then there are two bigger ideas that are "scandals" 1. "just believe" is not considered honest on many other things 2. Although all people are sinful, Hell seems too much.[/quote]

I'm not familiar with your other posts to know the context in which you're making these statements, so feel free to clarify or refer me to some past posts. I'm sure you've been through these discussions a few times before

Regarding "just believe," I'm a bit surprised you've gained that impression of Catholicism. The Church, especially in the West, makes great use of reason and logic in her doctrine. I know on a certain level certain matters ultimately come down to faith: one does not come to believe Christ rose from the dead purely by a logical argument, but logic is necessary to help us come to faith and ensure it "fits" with our knowledge and experience.

Hell... that's a more specific topic, and frankly, there isn't a whole lot known about Hell. Whether it's "too much" is up to God's judgment: ultimately, we trust that God is perfect in both mercy and justice, so whatever happens to us in the afterlife will right. It won't be like this world, where false accusations and judgments or unfair sentences cause us to distrust our justice systems.

[quote name='Paddington' post='1940517' date='Aug 4 2009, 04:04 PM']If you ask if I am "tired of this" then, yea I guess, but in many ways I like Catholicism.
And I don't want to go to Hell. Thanks to religion, I can waste my life, and not going to Hell (even by ceasing to exist) would make it all better.[/quote]

Not sure what you mean... you can waste your life, and religion will keep you out of Hell? If you believe you are wasting your life, shouldn't you consider changing something?

[Paddington]

Hi LF

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1941621' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:08 AM']I'm not familiar with your other posts to know the context in which you're making these statements, so feel free to clarify or refer me to some past posts. I'm sure you've been through these discussions a few times before [/quote]


I'm sorry, but I don't wanna look for past posts right now.
I hope we can do without them.

But I happen to remember one thread about the Eucharist being invalid if the priest fails to do Mass correctly. It wasn't just botching words of consecration, but rather something about "must do it with the mind of the Church" (paraphrase.)
The good thing with this example is that I remember you commenting (wrongly, I believe) and saying that there is nothing to worry about. If I remember wrongly, at least you can say so here.

Invalid Eucharist is something that I find disturbing along with a priest being able to ruin a would-be good Confession. So, part of my post refers to these two things which are often denied by Catholics.

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1941621' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:08 AM']Regarding "just believe," I'm a bit surprised you've gained that impression of Catholicism. The Church, especially in the West, makes great use of reason and logic in her doctrine. I know on a certain level certain matters ultimately come down to faith: one does not come to believe Christ rose from the dead purely by a logical argument, but logic is necessary to help us come to faith and ensure it "fits" with our knowledge and experience.[/quote]

"Believe in order to understand" is in the Catechism. But you are right that there is a great use of reason and logic in her doctrine. I suspect the reason and logic sometimes follow Catholic presuppositions and hand-picked questions, but yea.

I agree with "certain matters come down to faith" and want to point out that one or more matters by faith - on a certain level - make an entire religion by faith

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1941621' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:08 AM']Hell... that's a more specific topic, and frankly, there isn't a whole lot known about Hell. Whether it's "too much" is up to God's judgment: ultimately, we trust that God is perfect in both mercy and justice, so whatever happens to us in the afterlife will right. It won't be like this world, where false accusations and judgments or unfair sentences cause us to distrust our justice systems.[/quote]

Yes! It would be a major error to not trust that God is perfect in both mercy and justice. I like your last sentence above because it makes that idea more accessible.
But it is a major reach to think that Hell is short of extreme torment. Put your finger in a bic flame for 10 seconds. Then put your whole hand in a grill flame for 20 seconds. On and on until your whole body is in flames forever. These pains are not as bad as the spiritual pains! It has been thought of in this way for too long by too many saints who are, if wrong, hurtful false teachers.

It is hard to look at ugly sins and say that they merit any punishment if multiplied by infinity.


[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1941621' date='Aug 6 2009, 01:08 AM']Not sure what you mean... you can waste your life, and religion will keep you out of Hell? If you believe you are wasting your life, shouldn't you consider changing something?[/quote]

No. I mean that I don't want to give up completely on religion, because by the end of my life, I might believe in one and be saved through it by God. I mostly think about Catholicism.
Also, by the end of my life, I might be completely convinced that there is nothing to worry about, and thus feel safer - even if I "wasted" a lot of time to get there. (Probably better than saying "wasted my life.")

Sincerely,
Paddington

[LouisvilleFan]

Hey Paddington,

[quote name='Paddington' post='1942179' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:25 PM']But I happen to remember one thread about the Eucharist being invalid if the priest fails to do Mass correctly. It wasn't just botching words of consecration, but rather something about "must do it with the mind of the Church" (paraphrase.)
The good thing with this example is that I remember you commenting (wrongly, I believe) and saying that there is nothing to worry about. If I remember wrongly, at least you can say so here.

Invalid Eucharist is something that I find disturbing along with a priest being able to ruin a would-be good Confession. So, part of my post refers to these two things which are often denied by Catholics.[/quote]

I see how that can be disturbing. I've never heard of a priest offering an invalid sacrament because he did not offer it with the mind of the Church, i.e. offering Mass without the intention of consecrating the Eucharist. This element of a valid sacrament assures us that a priest cannot accidentally consecrate the Eucharist if he should, for example, just happen to say, "This is my body," while holding a roll at dinner. If his intention at that time is not to consecrate, it won't happen, so he doesn't need to be concerned that his dinner roll is Jesus.

Regarding invalid Confession, remember that God's is not restricted by the sacraments. If a penitent is unaware that they received an invalid Confession, we have every reason to believe their sins are forgiven anyway. It isn't in God's nature to hold something against us when we are sincerely ignorant.

[quote name='Paddington' post='1942179' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:25 PM']"Believe in order to understand" is in the Catechism. But you are right that there is a great use of reason and logic in her doctrine. I suspect the reason and logic sometimes follow Catholic presuppositions and hand-picked questions, but yea.

I agree with "certain matters come down to faith" and want to point out that one or more matters by faith - on a certain level - make an entire religion by faith[/quote]

Yes, the Catechism is a good example, which begins with believing that there is a God. But, just about any belief, even atheism, requires a certain element of faith in what we cannot personally know.

[quote name='Paddington' post='1942179' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:25 PM']But it is a major reach to think that Hell is short of extreme torment. Put your finger in a bic flame for 10 seconds. Then put your whole hand in a grill flame for 20 seconds. On and on until your whole body is in flames forever. These pains are not as bad as the spiritual pains! It has been thought of in this way for too long by too many saints who are, if wrong, hurtful false teachers.

It is hard to look at ugly sins and say that they merit any punishment if multiplied by infinity.[/quote]

The reason a person would be banished to Hell is that they have rejected God's love; thus, they've chosen to love something/someone else in place of God. Since that thing or person is a creation of God, but is not God, it cannot satisfy or fulfill a person for eternity. Another way to think of Hell is being eternally separated from a person or thing we love more than God. And if it is ourselves we love most, it might be the eternal realization of true loneliness.

Just something to the consider... I could flesh that out more later.

[quote name='Paddington' post='1942179' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:25 PM']No. I mean that I don't want to give up completely on religion, because by the end of my life, I might believe in one and be saved through it by God.[/quote]

Perhaps... of course, keep in mind the fundamental element of salvation (and Catholicism) is grace. Knowing the Truth can help a person become open to or remain in God's grace, but everyone who is saved will ultimately be saved by grace through Christ. That's Gospel as simple as it can be.

[Paddington]

Louisville,

Thank you.

The dinner roll thing was basically off-topic.

Why isn't the optimism about Confession misadventures officially taught by the Church?

Yea, faith is in everything. So much it is hard to recognize, I suspect. This doesn't mean that Ned Flanders is less intentional or even more honest in faith than Philip J. Fry. (I do like Ned.)

I will come completely clean (and you probably assume this already) that I disagree with a God who makes it possible for sb to be tormented for eternity. It sounds like a bad idea. If God is God, then why can't He have Heaven without Hell?
BTW, I do believe that the Bible teaches God as an active punisher in Hell. That God is intentionally hurting the people because He wants to while they don't want to be there. If that isn't the Bible's teaching, then all the stuff about God's judgements would apply to life before death, and we all know that life before death is unfair.

"If it is ourselves we love most"...do you mean that Hell-person would then be separated from himself for eternity? Something else? If you can flesh more out, I would like to read it.

Grace is an attractive idea, but are you suggesting that people in Heaven are not better people - thru their own merit - than those in Hell? Don't you believe that people in Heaven met conditions that people in Hell could have but did not meet? Don't you believe that the conditions are plentiful and difficult? I mostly expect you to say no, but would like it added to the conversation, and you might say something more about grace, making it more concrete.

Sincerely,
Paddington