Liturgical Music

[Guest]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1662404' date='Sep 23 2008, 11:16 PM']But wouldn't it attract young people? [/quote]

ya but kanye isnt even catholic is he ?
dont get me wrong it would be kinda cool..
im suprised to hear you argueing for this ?
i would assume you would be against it ?

[Resurrexi]

I wasn't seriously supporting it.

[Guest]

you thought i'd bite then you could

[Lil Red]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1659524' date='Sep 19 2008, 05:46 PM']I know that most Phatmassers want only traditional music preferably in Latin.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
not i

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MilesJesu' post='1659951' date='Sep 19 2008, 11:09 PM']When working with people who ask why Mass is boring, I have always answered truthfully: "if you come to be entertained, you will be bored to tears. You will more than likely find better music, a better speaker, or a better "show" somewhere else. But if you come to worship God, then there is no where else to go."

"The day you learn to check yourself at the door, and come to worship, that is when things will change. When you can put yourself on the altar with Christ and unite yourself to Christ's sacrifice, that is the day when Mass will no longer be boring. THAT is the day, when the Mass will come alive and will be the most amazing experience."[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
well said.

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1660943' date='Sep 22 2008, 07:40 AM']I wasn't talking about campfire music, but something written by someone born in the same century as I was is pretty okay.

I think this is a great philosophical discussion, right up to the point you have a teenager screaming at you that they don't want to go to mass because it's for old ladies.[/quote]
See my final comment on this post...

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1661262' date='Sep 22 2008, 06:39 PM']Chant and polyphony are hardly old lady music [/quote]


[quote name='Lil Red' post='1662921' date='Sep 24 2008, 05:23 PM']+J.M.J.+
not i [/quote]
Yeah, tend to agree. It doesn't have to be all Latin. The ordinary form is allowed in the vernacular for the reason, but there is the error that people tend toward that is vernacularism, meaning it all has to be english, and there is no room for the unifying Latin. Anywho, I've written some sacred music myself. It is music which I was inspired to write based on what has been traditionally passed down. If you want to see/hear some of it, pm me.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1661262' date='Sep 22 2008, 05:39 PM']Chant and polyphony are hardly old lady music [/quote]

I don't think they are, but my boys sure did.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Sacred Music Man' post='1663337' date='Sep 24 2008, 10:42 PM']Yeah, tend to agree. It doesn't have to be all Latin. The ordinary form is allowed in the vernacular for the reason, but there is the error that people tend toward that is vernacularism, meaning it all has to be english, and there is no room for the unifying Latin.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
agreed.

[jeffpugh]

Yarly. Anyways, how old are your boys, CatherineM?

[White Knight]

[quote name='StThomasMore' post='1659451' date='Sep 19 2008, 06:49 PM']I'm of the opinion that P&W music is too outdated. I think it's alienating young people, who don't listen to that sort of music. So, to attract young people to the Mass and to foster their active participation, we should really have heavy metal and hip-hop Masses. In fact, what I'm sure teenagers would like best is if we got some bands like Metallica and Slipnot and some hip-hop artists like Rhianna Kanye West to record settings for the Ordinary of the Mass, responsorial psalms, and hymns, and then the music could just be played on speakers at Mass. I mean, it P&W music is suitable for Mass, heavy metal and hip-hop are appropriate as well, right?[/quote]



I have to say the music that people listen to for entertainment. sould be seperate than the sacred worship music reserved for Mass, Do not try to blend the two, Rocky and Roll, Rap, Hip-Hop Sould be OUTSIDE of the Sacred Liturgical Worship Music. Rap has no place in Mass, nethier does Praise and Worship Music that is watered down traditional hymns.


I for one have been to a Mass where the music sounds very Protestant in nature, pretty Jump around, praise and worship type of stuff you'd see in Protestant worship services, and I find it has no place in the Mass, Mass is suspost to be reverent and Sacred, in the way its celebrated, Mass is not entertainment., If you try to mix the two, you end up with disaster.

If you go to Mass expecting to be entertained by the service then your not going to Mass for the right reasons, Music isn't what the Mass is all about all though it can help contribute to making a more joyful celebratory event but Mass isn't just the music, its about meeting and preparing to reflect on and to receive Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist, under the appearance of bread and wine, Mass is the greatest and most supreme act of adoration for and of God, not entertainment for pleasure's sake.


Teenagers need to be aware of this and start coming to Mass for the real reasons, not for entertainment proposes, if they do that, then service attendence will grow sky high.


People try to place entertainment in worship services and end up taking off the meaning of what these services are all about. The Adoration of God on His Blessed Day of the Sabbath. and thats extactly what it is, its His Day.


MASS is Worship, Not Entertainment.

Edited October 9, 2008 by White Knight

[MichaelF]

Guitars and Keyboards.

Why is it always guitars and keyboards???

My objection to "Contemprary Catholic Liturgical Music" is threefold:

A.) Most of it isn't very good. Certainly not good enough for Mass.

B.) Most of it isn't very Catholic. Some of it is outright heretical.
Protestant-sourced (like that written by Haugen) isn't appropriate either, for many
reasons.

C.) It's used as a subsititute for the near 2 millenia of sacred music that has been suppressed, abandoned and forgotten.

"Lord of The Dance" (ecchhh) could easily be replaced by [i]non nobis[/i].

Note: I am not of the Latin-only-or-you'll-Burn crowd. It's just that traditional sacred music is the only thing left standing when you eliminate the retarded stuff. If someone can come up with something of equivalent merit, it should of course be used [u]alongside[/u] Chant and Plainsong.

Edited October 9, 2008 by MichaelF

[Slappo]

Benedicat vos omnipotens deus Pater et Filius et Spiritus Sanctus

I got that from an underground bishop this summer. Yay for Latin!

I'd just like to point out that Sacrosanctum Concilium, although allowing the vernacular, specifically states in article 54

[quote]Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing
together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.[/quote]

Has anyone heard Latin mass parts with P&W for the procession, preparation, communion, and sending forth songs?

If the Church says we ought to know latin, we should assume that we ought to use it semi-frequently, and if we're using latin.... please no P&W...

Even worse is when they do P&W with an organ... music ought to compliment the mass, not be horribly distracting as one wonders what sort of nonsensical sound is being made in the church.

P&W has its place in the Church, but it isn't mass.

Back to studying for my Liturgy mid-term tomorrow!

[Slappo]

We'll go from rap and hip-hop in masses to

Lector: The word of the Lord.
Response: Word.

Priest: The Gospel of the Lord
Response: Wooowooo!

[White Knight]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1674227' date='Oct 10 2008, 10:51 AM']We'll go from rap and hip-hop in masses to

Lector: The word of the Lord.
Response: Word.

Priest: The Gospel of the Lord
Response: Wooowooo![/quote]


Its never going to happen. lol.

[Darky]

[color="blue"]I really appreciate gregorian chants and church music, but then again I am an odd cookie.

My own thoughts... Heavy metal and hip hop genres of music and the elements of music itself combined with the lyrical content work together to compose the song. The style of the song and the lyrical content needs to make sense and work together. We wouldn't match a mourning song with a fast tempo and cheery major chords that wouldn't make sense! Likewise Catholic Hymns expressing the greatness and adoration of God would be sung with reverence and with a composition that is compatible to that. Undoubtedly there are Christian artists out there who combine Rock and worship together, that is fine however for the cultural context of a mass rock music would be displaced.
The Church should not so much adjust the mass to suit the culture otherwise many other aspects of the mass would also be changed to 'attact the youth' why not have pizza and coke and a PS2 at mass if that is what you are after? Once you allow one element to change, the others will follow suit using that principle.
I'm confident that the youth would better appreciate the authentic mass if they better understand it and come closer to God.
I go to mass to worship our God, not to have a 'party' and a "good time"

Darky [/color]

[jeffpugh]

Verbum

[Brigid]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1674227' date='Oct 10 2008, 10:51 AM']We'll go from rap and hip-hop in masses to

Lector: The word of the Lord.
Response: Word.

Priest: The Gospel of the Lord
Response: Wooowooo![/quote]

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Brigid' date='26 October 2008 - 10:47 PM' timestamp='1225079250' post='1687079']

[/quote]

[OraProMe]

People's understanding of the Mass is so screwed up that even very good Catholics think "hey, let them have whatever music they want aslong as the pews are full!". The Mass is the re-presentation of Christ's crucifixion on Golgotha. When He says "Do this is memory of me" he is commanding us to remember His body "given up" on the cross and his blood "shed" for us all. The sacrificial nature of the Mass obviously makes certain types of music and behaviour inappropriate. Do you think Our Lady was clapping her hands and grooving out when she was kneeling at the foot of her son's cross?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='19 September 2008 - 05:46 PM' timestamp='1221868012' post='1659524']
In my 46 years of attending Catholic churches, the time that the largest percentage of teens were voluntarily attending, and participating in the mass, was in the early 1970's. That's when we had an assistant pastor who was young, long haired, bearded, and they had drums and electric guitars for the music. He wore the wildest vestments too. The church was rocking and fun.
[/quote]

This is an old post. But in my experience, the Church and the Mass will never compete with 'rocking fun' because its apples and oranges. I don't doubt that the largest percentage of teens voluntarily attending and participating in the Mass occured in the early 70s. These were kids who were raised Catholic and were being given the freedom to bend worship in ways that excited them. That flower blossomed and wilted. The teen religious fervor of the 70s didn't survive because it wasn't in sync with the preceding 2000yrs of liturgical tradition. While I don't want to stereotype an entire generation, its plain for me to see that in plenty of cases these excited catholic teens in the 70s grew up to be the Cafeteria Catholics who raised my own generation into a confused and liturgically/historically disconnected Catholicism. It has been my experience that people/priests/parishes who delight in liturgical novelties often maintain similar moral/theological heterodoxies as well.


And this StThomasMore guy was awfully snarky.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Veridicus