Abortion War

[dairygirl4u2c]

so i don't know why there's not a war, from the prolife movement. i've done this thread before, but usually i get more knowledgable about topics and can maybe frame it better the next times i do them.

people say they don't war, cause there's no just authority, and not enough liklihood for success. the authority point is secondary and nix really, cause if the liklihood were high enough, the authority were be there, or at least there'd be a movement to get that autohrity, which there's not here.

if the standard for war is "more likly than not" then maybe it's not here. but why does that have to be the standard> if the halocuase were occuring, or people being killed at the rate of a million per year as with abortion, then you know there'd be a war as long as the liklihood were reasonable, heck, if it were merely plausible.
with the abortion war, i'd think there'd be even a reasonable liklihood of success at least.

so what's the reason then that remains? there is none. maybe an arguable abot probability, but they usually don't hold up to scrutiny compared ot other genocide situations, or probabiity arguments.

the only reasons that make sense for why no war... is people are cowards... and maybe they can understand the prochoice argument, not hat they agree or htink it right, but can see the reasoning etc.

can't say no athority if it's assumed hte probabiilty high enough. cause at the elast, there's not even a movement for getting hat authority. and there's no excuse for the lack of movement if the success is seemingly high enough, at least.

Edited October 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[peach_cube]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670482' date='Oct 4 2008, 09:53 PM']so i don't know why there's not a war, from the prolife movement. i've done this thread before, but usually i get more knowledgable about topics and can maybe frame it better the next times i do them.

people say they don't war, cause there's no just authority, and not enough liklihood for success. the authority point is secondary and nix really, cause if the liklihood were high enough, the authority were be there, or at least there'd be a movement, which there's not here.

if the standard for war is "more likly than not" then maybe it's not here. but why does that have to be the standard> if the halocuase were occuring, or people being killed at the rate of a million per year as with abortion, then you know there'd be a war as long as the liklihood were reasonable, heck, if it were merely plausible.
with the abortion war, i'd think there'd be even a reasonable liklihood of success at least.

so what's the reason then that remains? there is none. maybe an arguable abot probability, but they usually don't hold up to scrutiny compared ot other genocide situations, or probabiity arguments.

the only reasons that make sense for why no war... is people are cowards... and maybe they can understand the prochoice argument, not hat they agree or htink it right, but can see the reasoning etc.

can't say no athority if it's assumed hte probabiilty high enough. cause at the elast, there's not even a movement for it. and there's no excuse for the lack of movement if the success is seemingly high enough, at least.[/quote]

Of course, you can find people you do battle in a war like fashion against abortion. However, war like tactics are not what is going to bring about any change, because it is a problem of our entire culture.

Abortion is part of our cultural sickness. Like a sickness it must be treated with kind and caring words, and a bit of chicken noodle soup thrown in. You won't cure the sickness by killing the sick.

[Hassan]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1670493' date='Oct 4 2008, 09:14 PM']Of course, you can find people you do battle in a war like fashion against abortion. However, war like tactics are not what is going to bring about any change, because it is a problem of our entire culture.

Abortion is part of our cultural sickness. Like a sickness it must be treated with kind and caring words, and a bit of chicken noodle soup thrown in. You won't cure the sickness by killing the sick.[/quote]

So if you were in 1943 Germany that would be your advice?

Try to instigate a cultural paradigm shift?

I mean so many here love to compare abortion to the holocaust.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]So if you were in 1943 Germany that would be your advice?

Try to instigate a cultural paradigm shift?[/quote]

the nazi's needed chicken soup, i'm tellin ya...

[Hassan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670501' date='Oct 4 2008, 09:23 PM']the nazi's needed chicken soup, i'm tellin ya...[/quote]




It reminds me of Nietzsche and the aesthetic. He noted that the ostensible Christians of Germany generally regarded the aesthetic who deprived himself of every pleasure and devoted himself to only prayer and penance as insane. Yet if the people really believed in God then they would, of course, regard him as the only sane man around. After all what are 50 years of aestheticism for an eternity of paradise? And who would risk the hell fire for a few worldly pleasures.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think there's an inner struggle almost every theist goes thorugh regarding god's existance. their actions speak louder than words. you are correct.
i don't think it means we don't believe in god though, cause i do. or to be honest tend to strongly, to a point that could only be described as faith of sorts. but i concede my actions don't show it as much as it should.

for me, it's more of figuring out what god wants, rather htan knowing and not measuring up. but it's a little of both.

Edited October 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[Hassan]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670508' date='Oct 4 2008, 09:33 PM']i think there's an inner struggle almost every theist goes thorugh regarding god's existance. their actions speak louder than words. you are correct.
i don't think it means we don't believe in god though, cause i do. or to be honest tend to strongly, to a point that could only be described as faith of sorts. but i concede my actions don't show it as much as it should.

for me, it's more of figuring out what god wants, rather htan knowing and not measuring up. but it's a little of both.[/quote]


Sure, and it applies to everyone, including myself(not just theism). I still find it odd

[peach_cube]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1670494' date='Oct 4 2008, 10:17 PM']So if you were in 1943 Germany that would be your advice?

Try to instigate a cultural paradigm shift?

I mean so many here love to compare abortion to the holocaust.[/quote]

I think we can both agree that by 1943 it would have been a little too late. The point is you will not change the abortion mentality with a war like mentality. It comes off as hypocritical and will not win any hearts that way.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670501' date='Oct 4 2008, 10:23 PM']the nazi's needed chicken soup, i'm tellin ya...[/quote]

Why bother posting here at all if that is the response you will give. I took time to read your rambling post, translate it, and reply. If all you are going to do is ridicule it then I'll just go back to ignoring you.

[Hassan]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1670521' date='Oct 4 2008, 10:02 PM']Why bother posting here at all if that is the response you will give. I took time to read your rambling post, translate it, and reply. If all you are going to do is ridicule it then I'll just go back to ignoring you.[/quote]


I think she was responding to my post.


I am torn on this. I would like to end abortions, but I don't see most "pro-lifers" lineing up with things that could reduce abortions, things like BC, sex ed, poverty eradication. Additionally the prolifers tend to lign up with right wing politics, which makes me very uncomftorable working with them.

[erosionofsanity]

what is this? a war with abortion? are we talking about ICBMs being loaded with invalid fetuses or something?

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='peach_cube' post='1670521' date='Oct 4 2008, 10:02 PM']Why bother posting here at all if that is the response you will give. I took time to read your rambling post, translate it, and reply. If all you are going to do is ridicule it then I'll just go back to ignoring you.[/quote]

i didn't mean to come off like that. i was just trying to make the point. ie chicken soup with the nazi's does not make much sense.
i'm not trying ot be mean by saying it doesn't make much sense, it's just my opinion. and some positions are rightly off the wall, and i thnk therationalizations on thisissue are just that.
partof my sarcasm is cause it seems to me thatyou're lying to yourself and everyone else. youmust not think that's the case.
anyway, i apologize for my approach, the sarcasm part.
i dn't know why i'm being otherwise ignored. i'm really not that mean. i'd think it cause people don't like to hear the truth. these sorts of threads are characteristically me, and show people what they don't want to hear.

as to your other point, you'd be for the chicken soup thing with the nazi's if there was a possibility they'd change? even if they were killing people at the rate of a million per year?
i still don't believe you if that's the case.

plus, at the beginning of the german genocide, there was in fact a chance change could occur without war. yet war was done.
there were economic methods of changing their situation, cause they had major inflation and econ dpression. there were ways to try to change their culture.
but it was deemd, andi think rightly so, the right thing to do, to engage in war. not chicken soup and fluff.

plus even if roe might have a chance of being gone, many states woul allow continued abortion. and there'd be many many exceptions in the other states. abortion isn't going anywhere anytime soon. there's not much of a liklihood for change, significant change. so war is justified like it was in germany, from that approach too.

Edited October 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

and the point isn't what was occuring specifically in nazi germany at X point in time.

it's the fact that if there were a million people being killed year after year, for more than 30 years as is the case with abortion, that war would have occurred a long long time ago.

to try to justify not acting by saying culture might change, if that genocide were occurring, is ludicris. no sarcasm, it's just ludicris. i'm not trying to be mean, i'm just saying hat i think, and what would be obvious to everyone.

if someone said they didnt want to engage in WWII ever, no one would care if someone said that position is ludicris. i think not engating a war with people dying at the rate of a million per year is ludiris, i don't see much of a difference.
mabe you do, i don't.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670535' date='Oct 4 2008, 11:17 PM']i didn't mean to come off like that. i was just trying to make the point. ie chicken soup with the nazi's does not make much sense.
anyway, i apologize for my approach.
partof my sarcasm is cause it seems to me thatyou're lying to yourself and everyone else. youmust not think that's the case.
i dn't know why i'm being otherwise ignored. i'm really not that mean. i'd think it cause people don't like to hear the truth. these sorts of threads are characteristically me, and show people what they don't want to hear.

as to your other point, you'd be for the chicken soup thing with the nazi's if there was a possibility they'd change? even if they were killing people at the rate of a million per year?
i still don't believe you if that's the case.

plus, at the beginning of the german genocide, there was in fact a chance change could occur without war. yet war was done.
there were economic methods of changing their situation, cause they had major inflation and econ dpression. there were ways to try to change their culture.
but it was deemd, andi think rightly so, the right thing to do, to engage in war. not chicken soup and fluff.[/quote]

You missed the entire point and focus on one part of an analogy. Keeping with the topic at hand, to kill people in order to prevent some abortions is not the answer to the abortion problem. It comes off as hypocritical. Hearts and minds must be won to the cause of pro-life, not just forced compliance through a use of deadly force.

[peach_cube]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670542' date='Oct 4 2008, 11:25 PM']and the point isn't what was occuring specifically in nazi germany at X point in time.

it's the fact that if there were a million people being killed year after year, for more than 30 years as is the case with abortion, that war would have occurred a long long time ago.

to try to justify not acting by saying culture might change, if that genocide were occurring, is ludicris. no sarcasm, it's just ludicris. i'm not trying to be mean, i'm just saying hat i think, and what would be obvious to everyone.

if someone said they didnt want to engage in WWII ever, no one would care if someone said that position is ludicris. i think not engating a war with people dying at the rate of a million per year is ludiris, i don't see much of a difference.
mabe you do, i don't.[/quote]
I didn't bring the nazi's into this, nor did I propose the conclusions that you are leaping to. I am not saying do not act. I am saying that one should not act with deadly violence.

Edited October 5, 2008 by peach_cube

[dairygirl4u2c]

you might have a point that i'm missing, maybe i need it explained more.

war with germans or a hypothetical genocide situation, is the only way to stop it. according to my understanding of your position, you'd say that we shouldn't kill to prevent killing in those situations cause it'd come accross as hypocritical, and we should try to change the hearts of the killers in those hypothetical situations.

i realize that you didn't bring the nazi's into it. but, you're trying to rationalize that war is okay given that it was beyond repair, but not with abortion. so, the reason i said the point isn't that germans killing people at X point in time, is cause it seems like if you have any argument as per that beyond repair stuff, it's a techincality, and it misses the main point. ie, a genocidal situation with a million dead per year isn't going to be fixed without war.

Edited October 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[peach_cube]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1670559' date='Oct 4 2008, 11:36 PM']you might have a point that i'm missing, maybe i need it explained more.

war with germans or a hypothetical genocide situation, is the only way to stop it. according to my understanding of your position, you'd say that we shouldn't kill to prevent killing in those situations cause it'd come accross as hypocritical, and we should try to change the hearts of the killers in those hypothetical situations.[/quote]

I am not saying anything about the nazi's. I am discussing the topic of an "abortion war." There are obvious differences between the two.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i realize that you didn't bring the nazi's into it. but, you're trying to rationalize that war is okay given that it was beyond repair, but not with abortion. so, the reason i said the point isn't that germans killing people at X point in time, is cause it seems like if you have any argument as per that beyond repair stuff, it's a techincality, and even if youre right, you just showed that the that specifci analogy was bad, but it misses the main point. ie, a genocidal situation with a million dead per year isn't going to be fixed without war.

basically imagine a halocaust that wasn't beyond repair culturally.

(plus i don't think there's obvious difference between the two, at all point of the german killing. namely, at the beginning of the killing, there was chance to change culturally. i suppose you might be taling about 1943 and me earlier though, but the point is that war was needed the whole time)

Edited October 5, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

basically, are you willing to say that we should change the culture if:

republicans started killing democrats. they've been killing them at the rate of a million per year. they think it's justified as they think democrats are crooked. there could plausibly but no time in the near future be change.

you'd be for trying ot change that culture anyway?
you would't use physical force to stop them?

[goldenchild17]

I think the abortion holocaust is a good comparison to the Nazi one. I think a war is most definitely needed, but it's just not practical. Who would fight it? A group of renegade civilians who would only end up being thrown in jail, or worse? There is no government and/or military organization that would engage in such actions. But yes it is needed.