My Fall From Grace

[Saint Therese]

I've been praying for you today.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Saint Therese' post='1687085' date='Oct 26 2008, 11:56 PM']I've been praying for you today.[/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ash Wednesday' post='1687072' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:29 PM']A lot of it was just my family background. There was an awful lot of stoic German influence coming from my father's side of the family. Conversations at the dinner table revolved around things like the job market, football or sports in general, and things like getting new hogs in the spring and chopping wood. Not really the kind of environment where one could comfortably ask "I've been wondering how backwards time travel could be possible without there being the problem of paradoxes. Oh, hey. Could you pass the potatoes please?"[/quote]

ahh.

side note.

Can I aske you

Did you all ever have to find a pickle ornament on a Christmass Tree?



[quote]Well, if I said I read a whole bunch of books, got all my answers and lived happily ever after because I figured it all out, then I would be lying.[/quote]

yeah, But I like that answer a lot

; )

[quote]For what it's worth, every person's situation is different, so what happened with me might not be the same scenario with you or anyone else. But in my case many of my spiritual problems were tied in with emotional issues and undiagnosed clinical depression. For others it's different, of course -- family problems, death of a loved one, substance abuse.... or maybe sometimes for people it simply is just spiritual matters.

I knew a woman who was molested as a child, and these unresolved issues manifested itself through some extremely stringent religious practices. I don't know how she is now, but in her situation there was a lot going on where her religious severity was just making things worse for herself and those around her. I have the utmost respect for people that have the spiritual fitness and calling to live very ascetic lives -- her case was completely different than this.

Anyway, once I went through treatment for depression (and that was kind of a complicated thing in itself), I was able to approach subjects like God in a more positive light and was able to come to terms with the more grey and mysterious areas of life and the fact that we don't have the answers to everything. God only knows how many souls are in heaven versus hell, and there's probably a reason for that. I don't always know why bad things happen to good people. Sometimes life just blows chunks.

I guess the phrase "let go and let God" applied here. I seriously had to lay off of the heavy reading for a while, though. My mom had suggested the psalms during this time and I still go back to them because they're often positive and uplifting. Just simple passages about man's struggles through life and the solace he took in God. I think we also have to come to terms with what it means to "experience God." Some of the saints experienced God through mystical experiences, extacies and visions -- but that doesn't really happen with most of us. I've had some experiences where I was very much emotionally moved, but they have been pretty far and few between.

To me, experiencing God is more than some warm fuzzy feeling in your heart. To me, I experience God through the people around me. Even the people I meet online! I've always been profoundly moved by Mother Teresa, because she struggled with spiritual aridity for much of her life, but she saw Christ suffering in every poor soul she met. That was mostly how she experienced God and served him.

I look at nature and the cosmos, and I just don't see how there couldn't be a God or some kind of divine intelligence behind it. There was a priest on EWTN a while back named Robert Spitzer, SJ, and I was really touched at the eloquent way he was able to delve into the metaphysical arguments on the existence of God. More or less he was able to describe just how delicate our universe is and the way it is fine tuned to sustain life, particularly ours, and it is actually quite astronomically remarkable.

Ultimately, I think belief is a choice. It almost seems to me that you could stick a bunch of people in a library that contains all the books and information in the world, and people will still walk away from it believing or not believing what they want. There is certainly great merit in bolstering your choice, your faith, with reason and having a pragmatic, rational or intellectual argument behind it. I certainly have well thought out reasons why I place my beliefs in the Catholic Church. I will never stop learning, but I think we have to pace ourselves with this stuff. And at the end of the day, we are humans with finite minds and we will never completely be able to get our heads around everything.[/quote]

yes, Mother Theresa.

I prayed to her a lot come to think of it.

Can I ask what your well thought out reasons are?

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686989' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:46 PM']First off I just noticed you were a Priest

nothing get's past me more than a couple of dozen times in a row

I kind of have knoledge of faith in a sense I suppose.[/quote]

That shouldn't scare you. Besides, if you have not noticed, I try to appeal to your intellectual side

I would not say knowledge as much as a sense, something you have experienced before, which was not your typical "knowing" but something else. And, I can hear that in your description

[quote]here is the problem. It is not self evident which "cave" to go into.

Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism etc.

None are more self evidently true than any other.

Perhapse there are ways to "narrow" the options down but then it seems that the assent into faith is predicated on an intelectual foundation that brings us to one "cave" over another.[/quote]

But, just like Pascal, I am trying to help you belief in something before giving you everything. Just like everything in life, it is a process, and does not happen overnight. You cannot undo years of doubt and skepticism in a single hour. God can, but I can't

[quote]which gets us back to the old problem right?[/quote]

See above


[quote]thank you: )[/quote]

You're welcome

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

Wow, Will, first off thank you very much for sharing this with everyone. It has been a long journey for you.

In all honesty, I didn't understand half of what you said because I have not done much philosophical reading. I may be a declared philosophy major and enjoy philosophy immensly, but my experience of it is very slim compared to yours. What I have read a good amount of are the works of the saints, and perhaps when you feel that your intellectual/emotional/spiritual batteries have 'rebooted' perse you could pick up some of their works and read them. I'd recommend [i]The Story of a Soul[/i] by the Little Flower or [i]Introduction to the Devout Life[/i] by St. Francis de Sales: both are amazing works that are actually quite simple and yet profound.

Ultimately, though, as a few others have already said, prayer is what is most important here. I know that you have already promised to try to pray, so I am not trying to pester you in any way shape or form here, just throwing in my own views of this here, as well. Last year I did a thesis study on personal prayer, and for my final project at the end of the year I had to interview some people and get their input on what prayer is. One of the people I interviewed was Fr. Bede, a 92 year old Benedictine monk I had worked with quite a bit on the Christmas Tree Farm and had gotten quite close to. I transcribed a recording of the interview I had with him for my class, and here is a part which I think maybe beneficial. The question I asked him was, "What is your understanding of prayer?" He repeats himself a little bit towards the end, but what he says is so humble and beautiful that I think that I should leave it all there.

[quote]Prayer is conversation with God, it’s talking to God, and we say Hail Marys and Our Fathers, we say the same thing over and it’s what we do when we pray the Hail Marys and the Our Fathers, those are wonderful prayers in themselves, to think of the same thing when we say the Hail Marys one after the other we meditate on the mysteries of the rosary, there’s a contradiction in prayer, we’re praying one thing and we’re thinking something else, when we’re praying the rosary. We’re thinking the mystery of the rosary, so it’s alright.
Prayer is conversation with Christ. Prayer is not always saying words either. You know, I like the story of a very humble saint, he just sat in church, and the (couldn't understand on the recording) would always ask him, “What are you doing in church?” And he said, “I’m looking at Him and He’s looking at me,” that’s perfect prayer, I look at Him and He looks at me, to realize Christ’s Presence in church, it’s in the Blessed Sacrament, and when we pray He’s looking at him, loving him no doubt with his heart, so that’s perfect prayer.
Prayer is just talking to God, and not necessarially words, as we pray to Lord. I don’t know the name of him, but someone was praying and he said, “I’m just looking at Him and He’s just looking at me,” that’s prayer, that’s perfect prayer. So we don’t have to say nice words when we’re praying, He doesn’t need a sermon, He needs our hearts, our mouth, loving God, trusting Him, with all things, that’s what prayer is.[/quote]
Yes, it is important to understand what it is we are doing while we are praying, it is important to understand our faith, but keep in mind that we need to know how to walk before we can learn how to run, and we need to know how to run before we can participate in a race. I'm praying for you, Will, and I really hope that some of what I said helped. If you want me to, I have three interviews of different priests on prayer that I could send to you: just throwing that out there in case you're interested in that. Unless you've changed e-mails since lifeteen shut down, I think I still have your e-mail.

May God bless and protect you always in all of your endeavors!

Your Brother in Christ,

Joe

[Theologian in Training]

[quote name='NazFarmer' post='1687270' date='Oct 27 2008, 12:41 PM']Wow, Will, first off thank you very much for sharing this with everyone. It has been a long journey for you.

In all honesty, I didn't understand half of what you said because I have not done much philosophical reading. I may be a declared philosophy major and enjoy philosophy immensly, but my experience of it is very slim compared to yours. What I have read a good amount of are the works of the saints, and perhaps when you feel that your intellectual/emotional/spiritual batteries have 'rebooted' perse you could pick up some of their works and read them. I'd recommend [i]The Story of a Soul[/i] by the Little Flower or [i]Introduction to the Devout Life[/i] by St. Francis de Sales: both are amazing works that are actually quite simple and yet profound.

Ultimately, though, as a few others have already said, prayer is what is most important here. I know that you have already promised to try to pray, so I am not trying to pester you in any way shape or form here, just throwing in my own views of this here, as well. Last year I did a thesis study on personal prayer, and for my final project at the end of the year I had to interview some people and get their input on what prayer is. One of the people I interviewed was Fr. Bede, a 92 year old Benedictine monk I had worked with quite a bit on the Christmas Tree Farm and had gotten quite close to. I transcribed a recording of the interview I had with him for my class, and here is a part which I think maybe beneficial. The question I asked him was, "What is your understanding of prayer?" He repeats himself a little bit towards the end, but what he says is so humble and beautiful that I think that I should leave it all there.


Yes, it is important to understand what it is we are doing while we are praying, it is important to understand our faith, but keep in mind that we need to know how to walk before we can learn how to run, and we need to know how to run before we can participate in a race. I'm praying for you, Will, and I really hope that some of what I said helped. If you want me to, I have three interviews of different priests on prayer that I could send to you: just throwing that out there in case you're interested in that. Unless you've changed e-mails since lifeteen shut down, I think I still have your e-mail.

May God bless and protect you always in all of your endeavors!

Your Brother in Christ,

Joe[/quote]

If you didn't figure it out already, this priest was quoting the story of St. John Vianney and his interaction with a man who would come everyday and sit in the Church, when St. John finally asked what he was doing he gave him that response: "I look at Him and He looks at me." I only mention that because you said you could not understand what the priest had said from the tape.

[tinytherese]

These are beautiful youtube videos that you might want to view.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9mnkvrbeE0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9mnkvrbeE0[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmjbM84Cw7E"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmjbM84Cw7E[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSjxDKJEo"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0nSjxDKJEo[/url]

Edited October 27, 2008 by tinytherese

[Ash Wednesday]

I never had to find a pickle on the tree, but I'll get back to you on your other questions...I don't like to answer them on the fly and am just killing time from work on here right now and should get back to it.

[johnnydigit]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686989' date='Oct 26 2008, 07:46 PM']First off I just noticed you were a Priest [/quote]

i've been doing that often. when i realize (again and again) a poster is a religious/priest, i think oh no, i probably wouldn't have said the things i did, at least in the way i did if i realized it at the time. ideally i should be treating everyone with that minimal respect..

<<apologizes and will try to do better. *makes note of what to confess. *notes the beauty of the transaction of Confession and prays for those who don't have this Sacrament..

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686989' date='Oct 26 2008, 07:46 PM']Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism etc.

None are more self evidently true than any other.

Perhapse there are ways to "narrow" the options down but then it seems that the assent into faith is predicated on an intelectual foundation that brings us to one "cave" over another.

which gets us back to the old problem right?

thank you: )[/quote]

in my "travels" i have found Catholicism to be the most superior intellectually. objectively if you are looking for a "religion" (lifestyle, philosophy, etc.) that offers the most answers, the most explanations, the best and the most tools for living a joyful life.. one that is complete and covers mind as well as physical body.. that offers the most wisdom and knowledge covering thousands of years of real experience, from the lives of the tens of thousands of Saints as real examples on how to live.. that covers every type of person from any culture, race, or time.. that has actually documented all of this for me to read myself.. that has the most information, on everything.. there is only one, "universal" option that will lead anyone to the safest, surest, and most fulfilling existence. if you were to categorically list all of these in detail, they would be virtually endless. this "deposit of the faith" is like a virtual Library of Congress of human life and makes all other religions look like a grocery store list.


"why follow the slave when you can follow the master?"
if you already know God exists and are looking to know more about this "god", you would want to find someone who knows the most about God, a tangible source of information who can teach you. you find that this person is called a "prophet" or leader of some sort. there are many who claim to be this, including Muhammad, Buddha, etc. all apparently do a fine job at this, but there is only one so close to the source, that he claims He is God Himself, He is perfection itself. this is Jesus. no other prophet of God claims this. why follow a mere slave, when you can follow the master himself? the source, instead of a copy. THE interpretation, instead of AN interpretation. i wanted the best philosophy of life, and this concept took it to whole new level for me - Jesus offers not just good, not just best, but absolute perfection.


"who knows the master best?"
if Jesus is the one to follow, who knows Jesus best? if he lived 2000 years ago, there must be people who knew him best and preserved his teaching. if there is text, who has the most correct one? these would be called his Church. so then which church is best? the original one. the historical one. the one that holds the deposit of faith. the Catholic one.

and this is all before i started to believe in the spiritual.. or knew there was even a cave.. or realized this is all barely scratching the surface..

.02

[Fr. Antony Maria OSB]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1687274' date='Oct 27 2008, 10:51 AM']If you didn't figure it out already, this priest was quoting the story of St. John Vianney and his interaction with a man who would come everyday and sit in the Church, when St. John finally asked what he was doing he gave him that response: "I look at Him and He looks at me." I only mention that because you said you could not understand what the priest had said from the tape.[/quote]
Thank you for clearing that up! I knew that I had heard that story somewhere before, but could not remember where, and Fr. Bede didn't mention any saints when he said that, unless, like you said, it was what I couldn't understand, lol. Either way, thank you for clearing that up!

[-I---Love]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686500' date='Oct 26 2008, 01:51 AM']That actually hurt me.( such events, not your comment)

It pointed to me to it being more emotional than genuin spiritual experience.[/quote]

There are certainly many charismatic communities that are not being faithful in their actions. And too often all of us are tempted to love Christ in His sweetness and bliss, and not when He departs for a while. To love Him for Him and nothing else is what we should try.

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686664' date='Oct 26 2008, 12:35 PM']What I am most interested in is what is actually true, so if I believed Catholicism, or any religion, were true my personal wants would not be an issue.[/quote]


[quote name='Hassan' post='1686989' date='Oct 26 2008, 10:46 PM']It is not self evident which "cave" to go into.

Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Church, Islam, Judaism, Protestantism etc.

None are more self evidently true than any other.[/quote]

I don't believe you are most interested in which is true. One cannot possibly include the Protestant heresy in a lists of possible Truths. It seems from your explanation that as soon as an intellectual argument stumps you, then you shake off your faith instead of just letting your faith be shaken.

If you came to the intellectual conclusion at 3pm tomorrow that Catholicism out of all religions is true, would you stick to it the following day when another question arose, or would you not be sure then?

If you desire such faith you must frequent the Sacraments and pray in private and with others. Attend Sunday Mass and make a spiritual communion. Ask a priest to hear your Confession although it won't technically be a Sacrament. Ask a priest (you may have to ask a while to find one that is faithful) to lay hands on you and Bless you. Pick up the Bible and read a little chunk slowly in front of the Tabernacle and just repeat it a few times and rest in His presence. Pray the Rosary in the car.

No matter how feeble an attempt to try to have a filial relationship with God, He will accept your crumbs of praise and pleading as a pleasing offering; unite your prayers to the Priests at Holy Mass.

Peace. You are not alone. The whole Church joins in battle against disbelief, a sense of being lost, and despair that there is no real Truth.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1686466' date='Oct 26 2008, 01:25 AM']I understand that. Sorry.

That was the point of mentioning that I was not raised religious and PJPII was the first act of real faith I ever saw. I was never "taught" how to be religious. He and that Muslim girl gave me insights into religious faith but thats about it. Other than that I was always intelectual, which is my very problem. As you said a faith based on proofs and arguments is empty. I honestly understand that but it's all I really know.[/quote]
I have been where you are and its a lonely frustrating place. Try reading C.S.Lewis, then Dr. Peter Kreeft.

[Guest]

I would say try to simplify your faith. Try to become like a child. I went through a really dark time where I lost my faith completly in the True God and Jesus Christ. I still believed in a God but I had no idea who this God was or how I could know Him. I ended up really getting into the bible and asking God for signs to show me that he was real. I know your not supposed to ask for signs but I did and believe it or not God gave me signs and now I will never doubt his existance or that His Son Jesus Christ is God and came here and died for our sins. I know im luckier then some to have God touch me this way but I dont regret it.

Now that was 5 or 6 years ago. I mean I did not magically become holier or anything like that. God has blessed me bigtime though and gave me the freedom to support myself. I dont deserve it and Ive been a failure in my opinon of walking faithfully with God. Ive had more then once questioned his goodness and questioned if he is really all loveing like he says. But God has always responded kindly to me and assured me is an all loveing God. I was still very sinfull and am sinfull right now. But through that time God has gradually and gracefully worked on me and brought me back to my catholic faith. I was a cradle catholic and confirmed but once I hit highschool it all went downhill. So anyhow, I guess my advice would be just to approach God as a child and have that childlike faith and trust for God. And I think God will show you himself in ways you never thought he would. Godbless

[geetarplayer]

Don't worry, Hassan. I won't try to fix you. Your story is very beautiful. You are a masterpiece in progress.

[Pax_Et_Bonum]

Interesting story- I'll sit around waiting for future posts.


Peace and all good.

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='geetarplayer' post='1687830' date='Oct 28 2008, 12:14 AM']Don't worry, Hassan. I won't try to fix you. Your story is very beautiful. You are a masterpiece in progress.[/quote]
I agree. My conversation with you isn't about trying to "fix" you.
I respect your viewpoints, especially since they are genuine, which is often more than even religious people are.

[Semalsia]

[quote name='Theologian in Training' post='1686678' date='Oct 26 2008, 03:03 PM']Couldn't the same be asked of you? [/quote]

One could argue that since I've never had faith I can't possibly know if I'd want it. It's hard to tell whether believing in God would make me happy.

[Seven77]

[quote name='Semalsia' post='1687942' date='Oct 28 2008, 07:42 AM']One could argue that since I've never had faith I can't possibly know if I'd want it. It's hard to tell whether believing in God would make me happy.[/quote]

Believing in God truly (faith) leads to hoping in Him (which produces joy) which leads to love. That is your goal and mine. Only love (the true essence of it) can make you happy in the long run... I am sure that you can agree with me on that. Do you want to be loved as God loves Himself? Is it possible?

[scardella]

Hassan,

I'm quite scatterbrained at the moment, so feel free to take this all with a grain of salt...

Actually the author that comes to mind at the moment is GK Chesterton. (his [url="http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/16769"]Orthodoxy[/url] specifically) It sounds like you've done a lot of thinking. And thinking and thinking and thinking... And reading too. I know when I get into a position where I'm only absorbed in my own world of thought and reading, it has very bad effects, particularly emotionally. It becomes like a black hole where I need someone else to come in and pull me out.
[quote name='Genesis 1']It is not good for man to be alone.[/quote]
That is not referring only to man and woman as man and wife. It also refers to the fact that man is incomplete when he becomes cut off from the rest of the world. We are social creatures, even if we tend to be anti-social. I think that may be part of your attraction to Phatmass. When you cut yourself off, your world shrinks. Continuing that, your world will become your mind, and the difference between reality and imagination will shrink until you cannot tell the difference. The reason creativity and madness are linked is because the mind unchecked is madness. When I read the book [i]Heart of Darkness[/i], it chilled me to the bone. I could see that madness within, and I was scared.

Catholicism (and the Charismatic movement) has been the antidote to that madness. It draws me out of my comfort zone, and has for the past ten years. I am much the better man for it.

I don't have a lot of time left, but I hope I don't sound too preachy or scatterbrained. Suffice it to say, I want to leave one parting thought. Man is not merely a mind. He is a mind/body unity, and, though you may prefer one side to the other, both must be satisfied in man's search for meaning.

God bless and good evening.

[Guest]

[quote name='Seven77' post='1688183' date='Oct 28 2008, 04:51 PM']Believing in God truly (faith) leads to hoping in Him (which produces joy) which leads to love. That is your goal and mine. Only love (the true essence of it) can make you happy in the long run... I am sure that you can agree with me on that. Do you want to be loved as God loves Himself? Is it possible?[/quote]

Yep without faith you cannot please God.