The Rapture

[Slappo]

[quote name='kafka' post='1690392' date='Oct 31 2008, 08:36 PM']as well as the two levels of meaning, namely the literal and spiritual levels[/quote]

Littera gesta docet;
quid credes anagogia;
Moralis quid agas;
quo tendes allegoria
- St. John Caspian

There are four levels of meaning of scripture:
Literal
Anagogical
Moral
Allegorical

It is a lot more complicated then your average Joe Christian can handle. To fully understand the meaning of the passages, one must be familiar with the rest of scripture, writing styles, historical and cultural contexts, and more.

[kafka]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1690965' date='Nov 1 2008, 04:33 PM']Littera gesta docet;
quid credes anagogia;
Moralis quid agas;
quo tendes allegoria
- St. John Caspian

There are four levels of meaning of scripture:
Literal
Anagogical
Moral
Allegorical

It is a lot more complicated then your average Joe Christian can handle. To fully understand the meaning of the passages, one must be familiar with the rest of scripture, writing styles, historical and cultural contexts, and more.[/quote]
I prefer Aquinas' approach better, in my opinion it is more fruitful. Two levels of meaning. The literal and the spiritual. The direct and indirect. The explicit and the implicit.

1. the words refer to things

This level of meaning can be literal, as in a narrative of an historical event, or it can be figurative, as in a parable. Some passages mix literal and figurative elements.

This level can be referred to as the direct level, in which truths are explicitly (directly) stated. Example: the Crucifixion of Christ.

2. the things refer to other things

This level of meaning is also called the spiritual level of meaning. It asserts truths implicitly (indirectly). For example: Esther implicitly teaches us about the Blessed Virgin Mary.


An understanding of the basic fundamentals is helpful, yet one can come to a depth of understanding through grace, faith and reason. It is not necessary to be particularly learned in writing styles, history, etc to come to a deep understanding. I do agree though that it is good to be familiar with the rest of Scripture. Besides, no one on earth will every come to the full meaning and depth of Scripture. All men put together with all their insights into Sacred Scripture still falls short of its depth.

[kafka]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1690818' date='Nov 1 2008, 01:55 PM']The Catechism clearly teaches that the Church will in fact endure the Great Tribulation. And it teaches of an Anti-Christ to come as part of this Tribulation, be it a single fleshly "Messiah" or a general movement of secularist fervor. And it further teaches that a millenial reign in any earthly political/historical form is heresy. Moreso, the Catechism warns of the scenario where those who support or encourage a millenial reign will likely find themselves [u]aiding and supporting the reign of the Anti-Christ himself[/u].

And I should also make note that the Catechism is the main resource for Ordinary and Universal teachings in the Western Church, which has been approved by the Pope himself, and which contains the infallible teachings of the Church in an abridged form.[/quote]
The Catechism is a document of the Ordinary Magisterium, yet it expresses three levels of teachings: infallible teachings of the Popes or Ecunemical Councils of the past, non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, and pious opinion/theological speculation. It does not declare new infallible teachings of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.

It is not correct or complete on every single point.

The Catechism makes some good points here such as The Tribulation and Antichrist and the General Judgement. That point made about millenarianism has nothing to do with the verses in Sacred Scripture about the Millenium:

"The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578"

This passage is expressing how the Church rejects secular messianism where a political kingdom is a sort of salvation on earth. The Millenium expressed in Sacred Scripture is a time of peace, holiness, and miracles. It is a time where Christ will reign through the Eucharist. A spiritual kingdom on earth, not a political kingdom, or one which emphasizes pleasure.

In addition the Catechism does not clearly state what the Millenium is or when it occurs. It states what it is not.

Edited November 1, 2008 by kafka

[abercius24]

[quote name='kafka' post='1691055' date='Nov 1 2008, 06:01 PM']The Catechism is a document of the Ordinary Magisterium, yet it expresses three levels of teachings: infallible teachings of the Popes or Ecunemical Councils of the past, non-infallible teachings of the Ordinary Magisterium, and pious opinion/theological speculation. It does not declare new infallible teachings of the Universal and Ordinary Magisterium.

It is not correct or complete on every single point.

The Catechism makes some good points here such as The Tribulation and Antichrist and the General Judgement. That point made about millenarianism has nothing to do with the verses in Sacred Scripture about the Millenium:

"The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,577 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.578"

This passage is expressing how the Church rejects secular messianism where a political kingdom is a sort of salvation on earth. The Millenium expressed in Sacred Scripture is a time of peace, holiness, and miracles. It is a time where Christ will reign through the Eucharist. A spiritual kingdom on earth, not a political kingdom, or one which emphasizes pleasure.

In addition the Catechism does not clearly state what the Millenium is or when it occurs. It states what it is not.[/quote]

The Catechism is clear in stating that the Kingdom of Christ will not be revealed whatsoever on a historical/political basis. Christ will not physically reign on Earth outside his spiritual presence within the Church and his mystical presence within the Eucharist.

[kafka]

[quote name='abercius24' post='1692848' date='Nov 4 2008, 03:51 AM']The Catechism is clear in stating that the Kingdom of Christ will not be revealed whatsoever on a historical/political basis. Christ will not physically reign on Earth outside his spiritual presence within the Church and his mystical presence within the Eucharist.[/quote]
It does not seem clear to me exactly what it is stating. Besides it could be incorrect on that particular point since the point about the Millenium is speculative theology. In my opinion the kingdom of God must eventually encompass the earth. Take a look at these passages of Sacred Scripture:

From Revelation:
{20:1} And I saw an Angel, descending from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the abyss and a great chain.
{20:2} And he apprehended the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and he bound him for a thousand years.
{20:3} And he cast him into the abyss, and he closed and sealed it, so that he would no longer seduce the nations, until the thousand years are completed. And after these things, he must be released for a brief time.

~ This passage directly follows the passage about Antichrist and the False Prophet being cast alive, body and soul into hell. Then the Angel binds Satan and the fallen angels into hell so that they may not tempt people towards evil. And this binding is only for a period of time (about a thousand years), and then he will be released. This does not refer to our times. Satan and the fallen angels obviously still roam the earth and tempt people. So it must refer to some future period of time.

{20:4} And I saw thrones. And they sat upon them. And judgment was given to them. And the souls of those beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the Word of God, and who did not adore the beast, nor his image, nor accept his character on their foreheads or on their hands: they lived and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
{20:5} The rest of the dead did not live, until the thousand years are completed. This is the First Resurrection.
{20:6} Blessed and holy is he who takes part in the First Resurrection. Over these the second death has no power. But they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and they shall reign with him for a thousand years.

~ This passage is clearly referring to the Saints who lived during the time of Antichrist, and did not adore him or follow him, etc. It also refers to a First Resurrection, implying their will be another one after the thousand years. They reign and live with Christ. We already know that the kingdom of Christ is not political or secular, so this kingdom will be a spiritual one where Christ reigns in the Eucharist, yet it still takes place on earth. So yes it is Christ's kingdom on earth. It is one of peace, holiness, miracles. Nature will not rebel against man since there will be no sin. It is strange to think of or imagine in light of our modern times, but God's kingdom will truly be established on earth.

From the Song of Songs:
{8:13} Groom to Bride: My vineyard is before me. The thousand is for your peacefulness, and two hundred is for those who care for its fruit.
{8:14} Bride to Groom: Your friends are attentive to those who have been dwelling in the gardens. Cause me to heed your voice.
{8:15} Flee away, my beloved, and become like the doe and the young stag upon the mountains of aromatic plants.

~ the Groom (Christ) is speaking. The vineyard is the Church. Christ Returns to the earth and gives the Church over a thousand years (perhaps 1200?) to reign on earth. By that time the Church will be fully mature and cover the entire earth. The Church prays she may hear the voice of Christ, thus God's will is done on earth as in Heaven. Then notice the Groom is asked to leave for a while.

The Our Father:
"Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven."

~ God eventually must answer this prayer, as it has been prayed sincerely so many times over the course of history.

The 2nd Beatitude:
{5:4} Blessed are the meek, for they shall possess the earth.

~ The Meek are all the true Saints. I do not interpret this as metaphorical, eventually they will possess the earth as an inheritance from God.

Psalm
{103:30} You will send forth your Spirit, and they will be created. And you will renew the face of the earth.

~ Yes this verse does refer to the first Pentecost, yet it has not been fulfilled to its completion. The Church is not yet fully mature, and the entire earth has not been renewed by the Holy Spirit. At least not yet.


I think these verses all refer to a specific time in the future which one could call the Millenium.

[abercius24]

[quote name='kafka' post='1693092' date='Nov 4 2008, 03:03 PM']We already know that the kingdom of Christ is not political or secular, so this kingdom will be a spiritual one where Christ reigns in the Eucharist, yet it still takes place on earth. So yes it is Christ's kingdom on earth. It is one of peace, holiness, miracles. Nature will not rebel against man since there will be no sin. It is strange to think of or imagine in light of our modern times, but God's kingdom will truly be established on earth.[/quote]

If we agree that the kingdom will not be manifested on a political/historical basis, then we are certainly going in the direction the Church teaches.

One thing I should note in those passages you quote, if I may. In Jewish literature, the "Earth" is a symbol of the Hebrew/Jewish Kingdom and the "Sea" is a symbol of the gentile nations (which are also regularly referred to as "the nations" throughout the New Testament). If you keep that symbolism in mind, those passages read very differently. In fact, that perspective supports the Church's teaching that the millenium exists in our current day in some form. Now can a more perfect Millenium come in the future? I don't know. But I do know the Church does not teach of a Second and Third Coming, so the idea of Christ coming and going as part of the "Rapture" and the Millenium is quite foreign to our theology. And the need for Christ to come as part of a more perfect Millenium is not really necessary since Christ has already told us that He would be with us until the end of the age. And we know that promise is fulfilled most perfectly through His Real Presence in the Eucharist. So if there is a future Millenium, I think you are right in believing it will come through Christ's reign in the Eucharist.

I need to do some more research on the Millenium for us to clarify some of these finer points (such as whether or not a non-poliitical/non-historical future Millenium is consistent with Catholic theology).

[kafka]

Abercius,

Like I said I certainly agree it will not be manifested as a political/secular government.

I dont see a problem with it being historical. The Earth is a part of Time, so all events which occur on Earth will eventually be historical. I even speculate there will be a type of time on the New Earth. I believe the Church in a metaphorical way renews the entire life of Christ. So the Tribulation/End Times is a renewal of the Passion and Death of Christ and the Millenium would be a renewal of the Resurrection and the time Jesus spent on Earth after the Resurrection. So it makes sense to me that after the Tribulation the Church will remain on Earth for a time praising God and being even more perfected. How the world will be set up eludes me. Their will be many holy Saints, and the Church will do the Father's will as in Heaven.

Thanks for bringing up the points about Jewish symbolism in their literature. Like I said before I believe we are now living the Millenium in a spiritual sense, but I speculate there will be a literal Millenium in the future. Sacred Scripture is for all times, and as you well know it has different levels of meaning so I agree with your interpretation in one sense, but in another sense those passages seem to explicitly or implicitly refer to a future period of time on Earth.

The Second Coming has been infallibly defined by the Magisterium, but the other fine points of exactly what happens in the years leading up to it (namely the Tribulation) and the time after the Second Coming tend to be speculative or pious opinion. It seems to me it implies in Sacred Scripture that their will be a Second Coming and a Third Coming, as well as a First Resurrection and a Second Resurrection. I've never seen or heard of any teaching of the Magisterium either condemning or affirming these speculations, therefore I believe it to be an open question as many points of eschatology seem to be. The Magisterium does not or cannot teach infallibly or non-infallibly on all truths of the Deposit of Faith. The Church continues to delve deeper into the Faith as She passes through time. I know enough about Catholic theology that I wouldnt bother bringing these subjects up in a discussion/debate form if I knew they were not open questions.

I'd appreciate anything you can find on the subject, though I'm not sure what you will find. I've read some articles on it and it seems some Catholic theologians have merely speculated on it, but there doesnt seem to be any consensus.

Peace. and thanks for the conversation.

[kafka]

here is a good article from the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia:

[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10307a.htm[/url]

[abercius24]

Here are some words from a 2nd Century Church Father on the subject:

[quote]O unreasoning men! understanding not what has been proved by all these passages, that [b]two advents of Christ have been announced[/b]: the one, in which He is set forth as suffering, inglorious, dishonoured, and crucified; but the other, in which He shall come from heaven with glory, when [b]the man of apostasy[/b], (2 Thess. ii. 3) who speaks strange things against the Most High, [b]shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us the Christians[/b], who, having learned the true worship of God from the law, and the word which went forth from Jerusalem by means of the apostles of Jesus, have fled for safety to the God of Jacob and God of Israel; and we [b]who were filled with war, and mutual slaughter, and every wickedness, have each through the whole earth changed our warlike weapons,— our swords into ploughshares, and our spears into implements of tillage[/b], —and we cultivate piety, righteousness, philanthropy, faith, and hope, which we have from the Father Himself through Him who was crucified. -- Justin Martyr; Dialogue with Trypho (CX); circa 155 A.D.[/quote]

Here St. Justin Martyr speaks of strictly 2 advents of Christ (allowing only for a First and Second Coming). He also speaks of the Church suffering under the Great Tribulation at the hands of the Anti-Christ. And the language he uses when speaking of the change of heart the Christians have (changing "swords into ploughshares") is language normally associated with the Millenium. This leads us to believe that he understands the Millenium as existing in some form in the general life of the Church.

I'll post more when I can find my set of Church Father's books, which are apparently lost somewhere in "the Vault" (aka my cluttered, box-ridden garage; another reason I hate moving).

And by the way, thank you for urging me to study more on this subject. I've been looking for an inspiring topic to study up on again!

Edited November 8, 2008 by abercius24

[kafka]

I did a little research myself and found some interesting teachings from the early pre-Nicean Church Fathers,who believed and taught some form of the Millenium, though I must admit their ideas were not well developed. The most popular Fathers who taught about the Milenium were St Papias (a companion of St Polycarp and is said to have known St John, AP), Saint Justin, Saint Iraneus, and Tertullian.

Since, you mentioned Saint Justin the Martyr, I'd like to start by ananlying his ideas a bit. I like the above quote from Dialogue with Trypho (CX), since he lays out the basics about the Tribulation, Antichrist, the Second Coming. I like his spiritual sense of Isaiah 2:3 yet I dont think he was implying the Millenium since He devotes two chapters to it later in the same work. My interpretation of Isaiah 2:3 is that after the Tribulation men will convert weapons such as rifles etc. into useful tools such as a sickle, etc.

Following taken from the Dialogue with Trypho LXXX & LXXXI (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.viii.iv.lxxx.html)

First I would like to note, interestingly before setting forth his arguments about the Millenium he states that some Christians agree with him and others disagree. This is an important point, since it goes to show that it was a topic of speculative theology.

"I admitted to you formerly,that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise."

Then he goes on to say:

"But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of dead, and a thousand years in Jerusalem, which will then need to be built, adorned, and enlarged as the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah, and others declare."

~ I agree with him that after the Tribulation, there will be a resurrection of the dead, Jerusalem will be rebuilt and their will be a time period of a thousand years or so, yet I do not think this takes place only in Jerusalem. I think the Just will inhabit the entire Earth. Notice he places the thousand years after a resurrection of the dead. Obviously, a resurrection of the dead has not occured yet.

In the next chapter St Justin does a short commentary on Isaiah 65:17-25 where he compares the thousand years tobe a sort of perfect fulfillment of Adam in the Garden of Eden. He also makes an interesting quote about St John and Revelation:

"And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.’"

~ so he says here the Just will dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem (implying a period of Time and Place) then will come the General Resurrection and Judgement. So take this quote together with the one from the previous chapterhe seems to be implying a sequence of events:

1. A First Resurrection of the Just
2. A thousand years dwelling in Jerusalem
3. The General Resurection and Judgement

I have to admit though that these ideas along with the ones you quoted are a bit underdeveloped. They leave open questions as to when the Millenium is. One could say it implies the Millenium in the spiritual sense in the life of the Church, yet it also leaves one to develop it in a literal sense. If he strictly meant them in the spiritual sense I would have thought that he would have mentioned the Millenium specifically refers to the Church. St Iranaeus has some interesting ideas about the Millenium. I'll analyze his writings in another post.

[Apotheoun]

The Second Council of Constantinople condemned Chiliasm as a heresy.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698016' date='Nov 8 2008, 09:33 PM']The Second Council of Constantinople condemned Chiliasm as a heresy.[/quote]
define Chiliasm and show me where it was condemned.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698035' date='Nov 8 2008, 08:06 PM']define Chiliasm and show me where it was condemned.[/quote]
Chiliasm is the heretical idea that Christ will reign for 1,000 years on earth.

As the Council of Constantinople I teaches: ". . . of His kingdom there will be no end."

Edited November 9, 2008 by Apotheoun

[Guest roesib]

I know of a very orthodox Catholic apparition in Flushing, New York where the Blessed Virgin said the Rapture is true. For more info go to www.smwa.org

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='roesib' post='1698071' date='Nov 8 2008, 09:19 PM']I know of a very orthodox Catholic apparition in Flushing, New York where the Blessed Virgin said the Rapture is true. For more info go to www.smwa.org[/quote]
No one is required to believe in a private revelation; and in fact, private revelations can add nothing substantive to the content of the deposit of faith.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698043' date='Nov 8 2008, 10:32 PM']Chiliasm is the heretical idea that Christ will reign for 1,000 years on earth.

As the Council of Constantinople I teaches: ". . . of His kingdom there will be no end."[/quote]
That is a simplistic definition. We've been developing ideas far beyond that based on Sacred Scripture and writings of the early Church Fathers who taught an idea of the Millenium.

some of the early Church Fathers speculated about the Millenium such as Saints Justin, Irenaeus, Sappias, Tertullian, Barnabas. Even Augustine believed in a literal Millenium at first, but later he changed his mind (which I disagree with).

The Second Council of Constantinople never condemned Chiliasm. They did condemn as heretical the teachings of Appolinarius who had heretical ideas such as Christ was not the Son of God therefore when He Returns, He can at best only be an earthly king and his supposed reign during the Millenium would be one of sensual pleasures.

The reason the Council added "of His kingdom there will be no end." is at that time some heretics (falsely borrowing from the early Church Fathers) mixed in their writings some weird ideas about a secular kingdom on earth where Christ would visibly reign, with gross sensual pleasures etc, and they did not want the Faithful to continue reading their works. Therefore, the development of the Millenium which began with the early pre-Nicean Fathers came to a sort of standstill.

If you've noticed, in my posts, I've proposed nothing of the heretical sort. To what exactly the Millenium might be is an open question of speculative theology.

The kingdom of God has no end whether it be on Earth via the Church or in Heaven. Yet Time on the first Earth will eventually end. And the different Time periods (or phases) of the Church on first Earth will come to an end with the Creation of the New Earth.

Edited November 9, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

The rapture and millennial reign idea has been declared dangerous to teach and heretical in nature. That is why I reject the concept entirely.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698106' date='Nov 8 2008, 11:55 PM']The rapture and millennial reign idea has been declared dangerous to teach and heretical in nature. That is why I reject the concept entirely.[/quote]
That is your choice, and I respect it.

I agree the Protestant and early heretical ideas are erroneous and could potentially be dangerous for one immature in Faith. So for me it is an incentive to develop correct Catholic ideas instead of avoiding the subject altogether. These are based in Sacred Scripture and the writings of the early Church Fathers so there has to be some correct interpretations/conclusions.

Edited November 9, 2008 by kafka

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='kafka' post='1698107' date='Nov 8 2008, 10:01 PM']That is your choice, and I respect it.

I agree the Protestant and early heretical ideas are erroneous, so for me it is an incentive to develop correct Catholic ideas instead of avoiding the subject altogether. These are based in Sacred Scripture and the writings of the early Church Fathers so there has to be some correct interpretations/conclusions.[/quote]
I will stick with the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church.

[kafka]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1698108' date='Nov 9 2008, 12:02 AM']I will stick with the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church.[/quote]
With due respect the Magisterium has taught very little on these subjects, and speculative theology is an important part of the life of the Church, so I'll continue with the discussion.