Can You Be Pro-life But Not Want Abortions Illegal?

[MissyP89]

I said yes. Don't hate.

The way I look at it is like this: if abortion is outlawed, women are still going to find ways to abort their children--starvation, coathanger abortions, etc. These can lead to the death of the mother as well as the child.

Abortion is never going to go away. If it's made illegal, I think things will get worse, not better.

[Noel's angel]

That's like saying it's ok to use condoms to help prevent AIDS. People use that argument all the time. 'Oh, they're gonna have sex anyway...'

I voted 'no' (obviously) for reasons already stated on the previous page. If you are of the opinion that something is a sin, why on earth would you want it to be legal?

Edited November 5, 2008 by Noel's angel

[princessgianna]

I want people in their hearts to change so there would be no reason to outlaw because the idea to kill your own child is completely absurd. I voted yes and that is my reason. I am against abortion of all though you can make as many laws as you want but nothing matters till peoples hearts change.
Pax and prayers for all the unborn children.

[Guest]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1694774' date='Nov 5 2008, 08:11 PM']I want people in their hearts to change so there would be no reason to outlaw[/quote]

problem is as long as satan is allowed to roam freely there is always going to be people like this.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1694674' date='Nov 5 2008, 04:26 PM']WHICH MEANS that the tenth ammendment applies... fancy how that little ammendment applies to absolutely anything and everything that the Constitution "makes no judments about"... if the Constitution makes no judgements, then every state in the union has the absolute right to either legalize or illegalize it according to the Constitution. The Supreme Law of the Land demands that this issue be left to the states or, if the states do not wish to do anything about it, to the individuals.[/quote]
So then why does it matter if the President supports abortion rights or not?

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1694817' date='Nov 5 2008, 07:38 PM']problem is as long as satan is allowed to roam freely there is always going to be people like this.[/quote]
very good point. did not think about that!
thanks i stand to be corrected on this.

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1694867' date='Nov 5 2008, 07:27 PM']very good point. did not think about that!
thanks i stand to be corrected on this.[/quote]
The problem with THIS, though, is that you are concluding that civil laws somehow bind satan. In your world view, satan is going to roam no matter the laws. Do people still kill people even though it's illegal?

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1694872' date='Nov 5 2008, 08:29 PM']The problem with THIS, though, is that you are concluding that civil laws somehow bind satan. In your world view, satan is going to roam no matter the laws. Do people still kill people even though it's illegal?[/quote]

It is when the government prohibits abortion, it does send a clear moral message to the populous.

The idea of restricting the sexual activity or irresponsible people is too controversial, because then we would have to pay for our actions, and that wouldn't be fair.

shalom
bro mark

[Madame Vengier]

Interesting question because a couple months ago I was talking to a religious sister and I was shocked when she made the comment that she was pro-life but she doesn't think Roe should be overturned until "there is a viable alternative for women". I never heard such a rationale in my life.

[rkwright]

wow lots to reply to.
[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1694483' date='Nov 5 2008, 12:48 PM']However, that does not mean that every one of your morals should be a law. Not all morals are to be attributed to a particular religious tradition. For example, stopping at a red light. We do it to avoid chaos which can lead to accidents. Is that some kind of Catholic dogma?[/quote]
No, but it doesn't change the fact that all laws are based on some moral imperative.

In this case, if we have discovered that murder is wrong, then we should outlaw it. No one is talking about stopping at red lights... You want to debate if murder is immoral?

[quote name='Hassan' post='1694487' date='Nov 5 2008, 12:54 PM']Even Scalia does not claim it does.



it's tricky[/quote]

Forget Scalia. Hes wrong on this one. He'd probably tell me a black person isn't a person either.


[quote name='Hassan' post='1694498' date='Nov 5 2008, 01:10 PM']no. Simply because you beleive the unborn is a person does not mean the constitution recognises the unborn as a person and/or a citizen[/quote]

And thats the real injustice. We have some document telling us what things really are? Please. A person is a person and has rights. Those rights are inalienable. Remember that language?

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1694501' date='Nov 5 2008, 01:13 PM']The problem is, the Constitution does not mention anything about unborn babies. So you may believe it's immoral, but the law of the land in the U.S. makes no judgments about it.[/quote]

unborn babies=constitutional person. The constitution doesn't say murder is illegal either. That was left to the states.

[quote name='Didymus' post='1694557' date='Nov 5 2008, 02:54 PM']I have no moral imperative to drive 30 rather than 34 miles an hour in my neighborhood, save perhaps that it is the law.[/quote]

You may not have a moral imperative. But that law does. To protect other citizens.

[rkwright]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1694678' date='Nov 5 2008, 05:31 PM']I said yes. Don't hate.

The way I look at it is like this: if abortion is outlawed, women are still going to find ways to abort their children--starvation, coathanger abortions, etc. These can lead to the death of the mother as well as the child.

Abortion is never going to go away. If it's made illegal, I think things will get worse, not better.[/quote]

I heard someone say this the other day.

Lets compare here.

If murder is outlawed, people are still going to find ways to murder others - guns, knives, whatever. These can lead to the death of the murderer as well as the victim.

Murder is never going to go away. If it's made illegal, I think things will get worse, not better.

^ Those are your words with one term substituted.

We could set up clinics we're you can pay to murder the other person. That way its safe and regulated for you. We don't want bad things to happen to you while you murder someone else.

It just seems strange to me?

[philothea]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1695143' date='Nov 5 2008, 10:34 PM']Interesting question because a couple months ago I was talking to a religious sister and I was shocked when she made the comment that she was pro-life but she doesn't think Roe should be overturned until "there is a viable alternative for women". I never heard such a rationale in my life.[/quote]
What the heck? What kind of "viable alternative" is there? All uteruses are removed and humanity uses mechanical incubators instead?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1695244' date='Nov 5 2008, 10:05 PM']I heard someone say this the other day.

Lets compare here.

If murder is outlawed, people are still going to find ways to murder others - guns, knives, whatever. These can lead to the death of the murderer as well as the victim.

Murder is never going to go away. If it's made illegal, I think things will get worse, not better.

^ Those are your words with one term substituted.

We could set up clinics we're you can pay to murder the other person. That way its safe and regulated for you. We don't want bad things to happen to you while you murder someone else.

It just seems strange to me?[/quote]
However, murder is a special case. People don't kill one another because it's "immoral" or whatever, to them. They feel bad. I don't think people are deterred by the law in that case.

[Slappo]

[quote name='Didymus' post='1694557' date='Nov 5 2008, 12:54 PM']I have no moral imperative to drive 30 rather than 34 miles an hour in my neighborhood, save perhaps that it is the law.[/quote]

We didn't say every person's decision is based on a moral imperative, but that every law is based on a moral imperative. Which should be edited to every just law is based on a moral imperative. A law banning the playing of violins between the hours of 1pm and 5pm is not just, nor does it have a moral imperative.

Speed limits have a moral imperative of protection, safety, and well being of people. Whether the speed limits are proper or appropriate doesn't make a difference, the point is that they are there to promote a morally good thing. In this case, the safety of people.

[rkwright]

[quote name='fidei defensor' post='1695389' date='Nov 6 2008, 12:10 AM']However, murder is a special case. People don't kill one another because it's "immoral" or whatever, to them. They feel bad. I don't think people are deterred by the law in that case.[/quote]

What? Your post doesn't make sense to me.

Its not about deterrence. Its the fact that killing an innocent person is immoral.

My post was saying that just because people are still going to murder others doesn't mean we shouldn't make it illegal. Its illegal because its wrong (a wrong we deem worthy enough of punishment). Regardless of how many people still do it.

[Deeds]

I think it would be possible to be pro-life but not want abortions to be illegal if there was good evidence that banning abortion would lead to more lives being lost through unsafe illegal abortion than would be saved by the ban. I do not believe that this is the case anywhere in the developed world at present. However, if someone identifies as pro-life using this logic, who am I to tell them they're not? We need everyone we can get.

[Aloysius]

by definition, if you support the law allowing a choice of abortion, you are pro-choice. period, end of story, it's very simple. pro-life is the opposite of pro-choice... most pro-choice people say they don't support abortion personally but they support the right of individuals to choose if they wish to do so.

if you're pro-choice, you're not pro-life (politically speaking, I'm sure if we were talking morally/philosophically, most people in the country would call themselves "pro-life" ie in favor of the right to life of every human individual... but if you support the government not illegalizing the choice of abortion, you are in abortion politics a "pro-choice" person)

fd, I would support anyone running for a federal office who supported the right of the individual states to decide exactly how to regulate/ban abortion (ie, the overturning of Roe v Wade which, in fact, restricts the states' rights on how they want to legislate the abortion issue, even though the Tenth Ammendment to the Constitution guarantees the states the right to legislate on any matter not dealt with by the Constitution)

[Madame Vengier]

[quote name='philothea' post='1695267' date='Nov 6 2008, 12:16 AM']What the heck? What kind of "viable alternative" is there? All uteruses are removed and humanity uses mechanical incubators instead?[/quote]

Exactly. Plus, she clearly isn't truly pro-life because her statement effectively means she's fine with abortions until some better idea comes along. It's just nuts. Anyway, she voted for Barack Obama, so there's no way she truly cares about the unborn.

[Brother Adam]

Can you be anti-rape but want rape to be legal?

[Fidei Defensor]

[quote name='rkwright' post='1695533' date='Nov 6 2008, 01:21 AM']What? Your post doesn't make sense to me.

Its not about deterrence. Its the fact that killing an innocent person is immoral.

My post was saying that just because people are still going to murder others doesn't mean we shouldn't make it illegal. Its illegal because its wrong (a wrong we deem worthy enough of punishment). Regardless of how many people still do it.[/quote]
I realize that, but I'm just pointing out that it's not a good comparison to abortion because the reason why people don't kill one another is not because it's illegal. However, you won't have everyone on the same page about abortion, and people would still seek them regardless of the law.