Conscience Vs Church

[mortify]

What say you?

[Resurrexi]

If one's conscience tells him to do something which the Church believes and teaches to be gravely sinful, that person's conscience is malformed.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' post='1715464' date='Nov 30 2008, 08:21 PM']What say you?[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
your second option should be: Follow Church teaching, since their conscience is [b]ill-formed[/b]. and that's what my opinion would be.

[mortify]

[quote name='Lil Red' post='1715490' date='Nov 30 2008, 11:30 PM']+J.M.J.+
your second option should be: Follow Church teaching, since their conscience is [b]ill-formed[/b]. and that's what my opinion would be.[/quote]

I said the conscience would be "informed" because the person knows what the Church teaches.

[philothea]

My answer depends (maybe) on some details that aren't quite clear in the original. Are we speaking of simply choosing to do something because the person in question doesn't see it as wrong, despite Church teaching?

Or,

Are we talking about someone whose conscience tells them they [i]must[/i] do something, even though the Church says it's wrong?

I assume you mean the former, but I can't tell for sure.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='mortify' post='1715494' date='Nov 30 2008, 08:33 PM']I said the conscience would be "informed" because the person knows what the Church teaches.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
that kind of makes sense.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='philothea' post='1715517' date='Nov 30 2008, 08:58 PM']My answer depends (maybe) on some details that aren't quite clear in the original. Are we speaking of simply choosing to do something because the person in question doesn't see it as wrong, despite Church teaching?

Or,

Are we talking about someone whose conscience tells them they [i]must[/i] do something, even though the Church says it's wrong?

I assume you mean the former, but I can't tell for sure.[/quote]
+J.M.J.+
agreed with philothea here.

[fides quarens intellectum]

i'm liking the poll results thus far...

[Tinkerlina]

I think it would be close to impossible to determine if the act would meet the conditions for mortal sin if the person had serious doubts about it being a mortal sin. My issue is more with the Church allowing something that I have a problem with. -Katie

[Guest]

good poll.

I sorta can relate to this. I have been informed here that masturbation is a mortal sin and I can see why it is wrong. Although when confessing this a mortal sin to a priest I have been sort of "laughed" at ( i dont think laughed at is the right word buy anyway) and been told while it is sinfull it is not a mortal sin and I am not cutting myself off compelty from God. Note that I am not here to argue masturbation is not a mortal sin. Although it does make it more convientent for me to accept this as a veniel (sp) sin and not have to go to confession for it. It is embarresing to confess this sin and sometimes I miss mass and confession because I really dont want to go confess this sin again.

I know the obvious answer is " dont masturbate". And ya that probally is the right answer although it is tough. Ive been celibet for over two years and sometimes I have a real problem with thinking masturbation completly cuts me off from God and I would go to hell if I died before going to confession. Ok sorry for hijacking the thread but I think what I typed related to what you asked.

So I guess I would like to vote for the first choice although the second choice is probally the correct answer.

Godbless,
Josh

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[Tinkerlina]

Wow, I totally give you props for being so honest about this. Masturbation is a venial sin, but I think (and I could be wrong, I'm not for sure!) that you are supposed to confess venial sins too (although you can still go to Communion as long as you're not in mortal sin), sorry if I'm wrong. But you are doing the right thing trying to stop. If you slip up sometimes, God will forgive you, I'm sure He recognizes your efforts. -Katie

[Guest]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1715628' date='Dec 1 2008, 01:56 AM']Wow, I totally give you props for being so honest about this. Masturbation is a venial sin, but I think (and I could be wrong, I'm not for sure!) that you are supposed to confess venial sins too (although you can still go to Communion as long as you're not in mortal sin), sorry if I'm wrong. But you are doing the right thing trying to stop. If you slip up sometimes, God will forgive you, I'm sure He recognizes your efforts. -Katie[/quote]


Whats up Katie
Thanks, Im hiding behind my computer screen. I think its sorta gross to talk about but yet I have seen it brought up alot here so Im comfortable bringing it up. I know I have read over and over here that its a mortal sin. I was under the impression you didnt have to go to confession for venial sins.
So I dunno. I would like to be able to go to communion without having to confess this sin to a priest. I would be really content with getting on my knees at mass and telling God im sorry for this. Esspially since the priest dont even find it to be a mortal sin. I am just really intimated of getting communion when I could possibly have a mortal sin on me. That being said I also dont like telling a grown man that im sorry for masturbating.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[Tinkerlina]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' post='1715638' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:05 AM']Whats up Katie
Thanks, Im hiding behind my computer screen. I think its sorta gross to talk about but yet I have seen it brought up alot here so Im comfortable bringing it up. I know I have read over and over here that its a mortal sin. I was under the impression you didnt have to go to confession for venial sins.
So I dunno. I would like to be able to go to communion without having to confess this sin to a priest. I would be really content with getting on my knees at mass and telling God im sorry for this. Esspially since the priest dont even find it to be a mortal sin. I am just really intimated of getting communion when I could possibly have a mortal sin on me.[/quote]

Yeah, I totally don't blame you for not wanting to confess that. And like I said I could totally be wrong about venial sins-I think you don't have to confess them before getting Communion but if you are going to confession I think maybe you confess all you can think of? Not sure, maybe there's someone here who knows for sure. Confession can be scary. I'm scared of it myself! -Katie

[Guest]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1715641' date='Dec 1 2008, 02:08 AM']Yeah, I totally don't blame you for not wanting to confess that. And like I said I could totally be wrong about venial sins-I think you don't have to confess them before getting Communion but if you are going to confession I think maybe you confess all you can think of? Not sure, maybe there's someone here who knows for sure. Confession can be scary. I'm scared of it myself! -Katie[/quote]

Ya the only reason I go to confesion is when mortal sin is involved. If I can just tell God im sorry on my knees im all for that. 100 percent all for that. But like missing mass is a mortal sin that I commit. I know there is no excuse but I do so ya. And Ive read here repeatedly that masturbation is a mortal sin. So that really ties right into what mortify was talking about. In my mind I dont really feel like im commiting a mortal sin yet the church teaches that I am. I mean I do my best not to have sexual realtions with females( again im celibet and proud of it), I cant help though that I have the desire for sex or masturbation . Again im sorry if this sounds gross or whatever but im being honest. And I find it really troubling that I have to go tell a grown man that im sorry for masturbating ( a mortal sin) before I can recieve communion. Even though after talking to the priest he tells me it isnt a mortal sin.

Edited December 1, 2008 by Guest

[mortify]

[quote name='philothea' post='1715517' date='Nov 30 2008, 11:58 PM']My answer depends (maybe) on some details that aren't quite clear in the original. Are we speaking of simply choosing to do something because the person in question doesn't see it as wrong, despite Church teaching?

Or,

Are we talking about someone whose conscience tells them they [i]must[/i] do something, even though the Church says it's wrong?

I assume you mean the former, but I can't tell for sure.[/quote]

The former is what I had in mind.

[philothea]

[quote name='philothea' post='1715517' date='Nov 30 2008, 10:58 PM']My answer depends (maybe) on some details that aren't quite clear in the original. Are we speaking of simply choosing to do something because the person in question doesn't see it as wrong, despite Church teaching?

Or,

Are we talking about someone whose conscience tells them they [i]must[/i] do something, even though the Church says it's wrong?

I assume you mean the former, but I can't tell for sure.
[quote name='mortify' post='1715788' date='Dec 1 2008, 11:18 AM']
The former is what I had in mind.[/quote][/quote]
Oh, that's easy then. Follow Church teaching, of course!

[rkwright]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1715628' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:56 AM']Wow, I totally give you props for being so honest about this. Masturbation is a venial sin, but I think (and I could be wrong, I'm not for sure!) that you are supposed to confess venial sins too (although you can still go to Communion as long as you're not in mortal sin), sorry if I'm wrong. But you are doing the right thing trying to stop. If you slip up sometimes, God will forgive you, I'm sure He recognizes your efforts. -Katie[/quote]

I don't want people to get the wrong idea here... but objectively masturbation is a mortal sin.

The Church calls it a grave sin. Now subjectively there can be mitigating circumstances, but again objectively it is a mortal sin.

Edited December 1, 2008 by rkwright

[mortify]

[quote name='philothea' post='1715811' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:47 PM']Oh, that's easy then. Follow Church teaching, of course! [/quote]

What would your answer be if a Catholic's conscience [i]commanded[/i] them to commit a mortal sin?

Edited December 1, 2008 by mortify

[CatherineM]

[quote name='mortify' post='1715843' date='Dec 1 2008, 11:27 AM']What would your answer be if a Catholic's conscience [i]commanded[/i] them to commit a mortal sin?[/quote]

The only way I can imagine that happening is if I had a time machine, and had the opportunity to go back in time and murder Hitler before he came to power.

In the real world, we have to have the hope that the God knows what he is doing, and to trust in that. My conscience can't command me to do something intrinsically evil unless there is something wrong with the way my conscience has been formed.

[philothea]

[quote name='mortify' post='1715843' date='Dec 1 2008, 12:27 PM']What would your answer be if a Catholic's conscience [i]commanded[/i] them to commit a mortal sin?[/quote]
Well, that's unfortunate, because the only way that can happen is if they're insane. Or, Catherine's time machine, I suppose...

Believing the Church teaches something to be a mortal sin, and believing I must nevertheless do that thing is an irreconcilable contradiction, and I don't see how anyone possessed of a working intellect could come to it. But still, as far as I recall, actual Church teaching is that we are supposed to continually inform our consciences as well as we can, then follow them as primary guides.

Because, what is the alternative? If someone is honestly truly convinced that doing X (or failing to do X) is [i]wrong[/i]... they should do it anyway? People should deliberately and consciously do things they are convinced are evil? That doesn't work.

People can learn they were mistaken, become wiser and correct their ways, but the moral damage from doing things known to be wrong just because some authority said so is dreadful. You don't want people to stifle or learn to ignore their consciences. That leads to monsters.

Yes, the Church is an infallible guide, but it's not a booming voice in the sky that lets us know everything we ought to. A priest could be misinformed. A book could have a typo. A (gasp) website could be outright deceitful. And situations can be a whole lot more nuanced than any abstract teaching can help with.

We need to inform our consciences and then trust them.

Edited December 1, 2008 by philothea