Questions For Those Who Converted To Catholicism

[Maggyie]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1732545' date='Dec 20 2008, 11:13 AM']No but they didn't know about things like science and evolution back then either.[/quote]

Aristotle didn't know about [i]science[/i]?

[Apotheoun]

Anaximander had a theory of evolution.

[MithLuin]

I agree that empirical evidence and the scientific method, while beautiful and useful tools, do not apply to everything.

It depends what question you want to ask, and whether or not the explanations you put forward are falsifiable. If not, it does not apply, and science is silent on the topic.

If the question is "Do you love your mother?" no one is going to answer this question with evidence that can be independently verified and peer-reviewed. They are going to answer based on their experiences and convictions, and the person asking the question will either have to accept what they say or not.

If the question is, "Do aliens exist?" science is likewise silent. The best we can do is say, "The universe is a very big place and there are many other stars and (likely) planets out there, so there is a good [i]chance[/i] that aliens exist." But in the absense of evidence, we do not know, and deciding that aliens are real (forget about UFOs and them visiting earth for a moment) is left to the realm of personal belief. That does not mean that no one is interested in pondering the question, "Are we alone in the universe?" or coming up with answers to it, but merely that science is not the tool that will give you the answer to such a question. (If the universe were truly infinite, then every possibility would be a reality, but that [i]is[/i] as ridiculous as it sounds - the universe pretty much has to be finite.)

When you asked people what they would do if it was proven that God did not exist, I am sure many of them were thinking something like, "I would be skeptical of the supposed 'proof'." In other words, they have confidence in their own reasons for believing in God, but would think of some mathematical construct as a cheat. Arguments cannot just hold together, they must [i]convince.[/i] Faith and reason do work together, so that the trust faith demands of us is not taken to the level of absurdity. People believe because the tenets of faith resonate as true to them, not because (despite everything their brain is telling them) they feel they ought to.

Moments of doubt can be scary, frustrating or disconcerting, depending on what else is going on. I don't recall grabbing a Bible, but I [i]do[/i] remember grabbing the table to keep the world from spinning

[Graciela]

I was only 15 at the time and there were no Eastern Orthodox churches in my hometown or nearby, so it was pretty much off the radar screen.

I had been raised Methodist. What I did not do at the time was consider the Episcopal Church- I don't recall that being a conscious decision, more a coincidence of opportunities. In retrospect, I regret it very much. I joined the Roman catholic Church at the height of post-Vatican II renewal and ever since that time, the institution has been going more retrograde. The RC hierarchy's collusion in covering up child sex abuse by priests was the last straw, and after 20 years, I became Episcopalian, which is what I should have done in the first place. If I could retrace my steps, I would not have joined the RC church at all- in my heart, my faith was always that of the Episcopal Church- not only theologically but also ecclesiastically.

But God draws straight with crooked lines and I managed to get to the right spot none the less, for which I am very grateful. God is good and the Pope does not control God!

[Socrates]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1734084' date='Dec 22 2008, 09:36 PM']I was only 15 at the time and there were no Eastern Orthodox churches in my hometown or nearby, so it was pretty much off the radar screen.

I had been raised Methodist. What I did not do at the time was consider the Episcopal Church- I don't recall that being a conscious decision, more a coincidence of opportunities. In retrospect, I regret it very much. I joined the Roman catholic Church at the height of post-Vatican II renewal and ever since that time, the institution has been going more retrograde. The RC hierarchy's collusion in covering up child sex abuse by priests was the last straw, and after 20 years, I became Episcopalian, which is what I should have done in the first place. If I could retrace my steps, I would not have joined the RC church at all- in my heart, my faith was always that of the Episcopal Church- not only theologically but also ecclesiastically.[/quote]
1) There was just as much sex abuse in the Episcopal Church as in the Catholic Church, despite less media coverage.
2) Most of the Catholic sex abuse cases took place during the "height of post-Vatican II renewal" as you call it (the '60s-70s) and thus being "retrograde" had nothing to do with it.
3) Most of the clergy involved in cover-up were of the heterodox "liberal" variety, so blaming "retrograde" theology is absurd.

[quote]But God draws straight with crooked lines and I managed to get to the right spot none the less, for which I am very grateful. God is good and the Pope does not control God![/quote]
Neither does the Episcopal Conference.

[Graciela]

[quote name='Socrates' post='1734158' date='Dec 22 2008, 10:05 PM']1) There was just as much sex abuse in the Episcopal Church as in the Catholic Church, despite less media coverage.
2) Most of the Catholic sex abuse cases took place during the "height of post-Vatican II renewal" as you call it (the '60s-70s) and thus being "retrograde" had nothing to do with it.
3) Most of the clergy involved in cover-up were of the heterodox "liberal" variety, so blaming "retrograde" theology is absurd.

Clearly you missed my point. I did not deny that sex abuse by clergy occurs in all denominations. The final straw for me was the widespread cover-up of priest abusers by Roman Catholic bishops and cardinals- the testimony for which has been admitted in courts of law in the Boston and Los Angeles archdioceses. The millions and millions of dollars that the Catholic church has paid out to abuse victims in recent years if massively more than any settlements that have affected the Episcopal church- none ofour diocese have had to declare bankruptcy because of such settlements. My point was not about theology but about the abuses of authority by a hierarchy that does not have any accountability except to itself and the Pope. In the Episcopal Church the polity includes involvement of lay reprentatives in governance at all levels, so there is such accountability built in to the system.

Neither does the Episcopal Conference.[/quote]
There is NO Episcopal "Conference" so clearly you have NO idea about our polity. We have diocese and bishops and a trienniel General Convention at which clergy and lay delegates meet to make decisions affecting the nation al church. And no one anywhere in the Anglican Communion claims infallibility as the Pope does.

[princessgianna]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1734084' date='Dec 22 2008, 08:36 PM']God is good and the Pope does not control God![/quote]

Who has ever said the Pope controls God????

That whole idea is totally absorbed!!

[Maggyie]

Graciela, welcome! One of the things Catholics believe in is respectful dialogue. We will loooove talking with you, but at the same time it's important for you to adopt a non-combative and respectful attitude, the same as you would with any other faith community you disagree with! Making comments about the Pope controlling God is sort of like somebody making a snide remark about Muslims worshiping a rock. It's just not right OR Christian -it's hateful. Most Episcoplians I have known don't behave like that, either you are the exception or you are just having a bad day, I suspect it's the latter.

[Graciela]

Maggie-

Let's see whether I understand this-

it is NOT hateful to raise the question whether torture and murder of so-called heretics is defensible today or to pronounce another poster heretical, but I am being hateful for addressing misinformation about my denomination and other snide remarks about "Priestesses" being "creepy"?

Looks like an instance of "I see the splinter in another's eye but not the log in my own."

If I had experienced the respectfulness of which you speak by other posters on PM, perhaps I would not have been so offended and thus, cranky.

Graciela

[mortify]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1734343' date='Dec 23 2008, 12:46 PM']it is NOT hateful to raise the question whether torture and murder of so-called heretics is defensible today or to pronounce another poster heretical, but I am being hateful for addressing misinformation about my denomination and other snide remarks about "Priestesses" being "creepy"?[/quote]

It's an honest question whether the punishment for heretics can be carried out today, but the answer is no. However, we should not forget that burning heretics alive was done by Protestants as well, and if I'm not mistaken more were burned by Prots than Caths...

But anyway no need to be cranky, it's just a forum


God bless and welcome,
Mort

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1734343' date='Dec 23 2008, 12:46 PM']If I had experienced the respectfulness of which you speak by other posters on PM, perhaps I would not have been so offended and thus, cranky.

Graciela[/quote]

It's understandable that we all get cranky, lol yours truly was guilty this morning as I attempted to fight my way through the ice and the traffic this morning! However it helps to keep Jesus' example always before you. On a forum we have the advantage of having to actually type out our words which usually introduces "an extra layer of grace" so to speak, where we have time to correct ourselves before we hit "post." Other people may annoy us but that doesn't make it OK to give it back... lol I have had conversations with Jesus where I say "please, Lord, they so deserve it, let me slap them down!" Sometimes saying a prayer before typing or before hitting post helps. We could all do better

The one thing about "priestess" is that it is just a part of our English language... god vs. goddess, actor vs. actress etc. I mean it [b]has [/b]pagan connotations but that's just the reality of the situation? That's why people find the concept creepy, not because they think women ministers from other denominations are scary but because it reminds them of Roman temples and bloody sacrifices etc. Maybe after x many years it will lose its pagan connotations and people will think "priestess" means Anglian woman priest?

I know that to Episcopalians there is no difference between male and female ministers but to most historical Churches it IS an issue, so in talking about them we have to differentiate in order to make our conversations less confusing. What is better, should we say "male priest" and "female priest"? Honest question.

I also know that some people find the "ess" ending deeply offensive and anti-feminist but to me that is silly, as a lover of language I don't like artifical mutilations like that... in many languages all the words have gender, such as my beloved French for example! Of course now that I know it is offensive I'll try to remember not to use it in reference to Anglicans... although I have also run into some who don't mind?

Edited December 23, 2008 by Maggie

[Guest]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1729182' date='Dec 16 2008, 12:18 AM']You thinking you are not crazy or delusional does not mean you are not crazy or delusional.[/quote]

If you read my post I said I was crazy. I think alot of people are crazy and dont realise it. You not believing in the God who created you makes you crazy. You not asking the holy spirit to come into your heart and show you he is real makes you crazy. I am a firm believer there are two kinds of crazy. One good one bad.

As far as me being delusional ? hmmmmm mabey, but probally not.
Like I said the holy spirit is real and living and once you have an encounter with him you become aware of this. Faith is a gift from the God. Without the holy spirit you cannot expercience faith. You cant really say if my experiences are authetnic or not. You have not been seeing through my eyes.

Again, if I tell you that I went over to my grandmas and we ordered pizza and had a great afternoon, then conclude to say that she loves me, you dont necessarily have to believe me.
You could say I was delusional and really didnt go. I could be lieing that I went over there. I could be lieing that we actually got pizza and that she loves me. BUT if I know I went over there and I know my grandma loves me it really doenst matter if you say im delusional.

We belive in God which means we believe in love. You dont belive in love because you dont believe in God. God is real and breathing. You cant just go into religion with the intent of having God proove himself to you. You have to ask humbly for God to come into your life. You have to love God. Without love you are nothing and it doesnt matter how religious you are.

IF YOU SINCERLY ASK GOD INTO YOUR LIFE HE WILL COME INTO IT. GOD IS JESUS CHRIST AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS HIS CHURCH.



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Edited December 23, 2008 by Guest

[Socrates]

[quote name='Graciela' post='1734184' date='Dec 22 2008, 11:47 PM']There is NO Episcopal "Conference" so clearly you have NO idea about our polity. We have diocese and bishops and a trienniel General Convention at which clergy and lay delegates meet to make decisions affecting the nation al church. And no one anywhere in the Anglican Communion claims infallibility as the Pope does.[/quote]
I stand corrected.

The Episcopalian trienniel General Convention does not control God.

[Graciela]

I know that to Episcopalians there is no difference between male and female ministers but to most historical Churches it IS an issue, so in talking about them we have to differentiate in order to make our conversations less confusing. What is better, should we say "male priest" and "female priest"? Honest question.

I also know that some people find the "ess" ending deeply offensive and anti-feminist but to me that is silly, as a lover of language I don't like artifical mutilations like that... in many languages all the words have gender, such as my beloved French for example! Of course now that I know it is offensive I'll try to remember not to use it in reference to Anglicans... although I have also run into some who don't mind?
[/quote]

I appreciate your question, Maggie. On a day to day basis for us, specifying whether a priest is male or female is not necessary- it is implied in the context such as talking about the rector and his wife or the vicar and her husband or that the priest at such-and-such parish is pregnant and expecting her first baby any day now (that pretty much seals the deal that she is female).

However in those contexts were it is necessary to specify, I would propose that saying male or female priest is preferable to using priest and priestess for males and females respectively. I posit this in recognition of typical English usage patterns in the US, where we no longer
"gender-ize" titles for roles and jobs. For example, a woman holding a job as a Director is not called a Directress, and such usages would seem anachronistic today in public contexts. Even some parts of the entertainment industry are starting to move away from actor and actress to "actor" regardless of gender.

I love French too, but I remember that learning the masculine and feminine forms was a challenge at first because we don't have the same patterns in English usage. So my proposal is not a theological argument but a common language usage one.

[Johnny]

[quote name='Theosis3' post='1718776' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:06 PM']God be with all of you,

This is a personal question for those of you [b]who are converts[/b].

What made you convert to the Catholic Church? Did you ever consider the Eastern Orthodox Church? If so, why did you choose the Catholic Church over the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Thank you.[/quote]
Can't say that I did, at least not when I was in the process of converting. I didn't really know what it was. Although it's allured me very heavily for the past 6 months or so. What keeps me Catholic? Well, I felt a very strong calling to the Catholic Church, anyone who knows me and my up bringing realizes how hard it was for me to become Catholic, I come from a long, long line of Baptists. Anywho, my very strong calling to the Church means a lot to me. Too me it's what I hearken back to when I am feeling doubtful or down, I know the Lord called me in that direction, I know He did. I became a Catholic for a reason.
The second reason is well Jesus said we are to be the light of the world, and a city sitting upon a hill. We were also given the Great Commission. How could Orthodoxy be the one true faith if so little people have heard of it, and even less people are Orthodox?

[Vincent Vega]

I voted "Yes" and "No."
Spending my early years in Western PA, where there is a strong Eastern European presence, I was aware of the Orthodox Church. I was also aware of the Roman Catholic Church, because the Catholic presence in the Pittsburgh area is huge, and because my grandparents are Catholic. I was pretty young when we moved (nine or ten), so I had never given religion a great deal of thought, other than I knew I was Christian - I never really knew nor gave a lot of time to what "Presbyterian" meant. I did know, from going to masses every now and again with my grandparents, that Catholics, and the Orthodox too, in limited experience, were very different.
I always enjoyed the more elevated and reverent atmosphere with the "kneeling" and "communion" and whatnot of both the Catholic and Orthodox . I never really understood what it meant, nor really thought about it for another five or six years. I remembered loving the liturgies of both the Eastern and Western Churches, but here in Jacksonville, the closest Orthodox churches are 30/40+ minutes away. I couldn't drive when I started discerning my conversion, so geography helped decide for me. Later, when I learned of what caused the schism, I decided that with the filioque, that both had valid points, but the primacy of St. Peter as preached by the Latins was what really won me.

[catholicrox]

[quote name='Theosis3' post='1718776' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:06 PM']God be with all of you,

This is a personal question for those of you [b]who are converts[/b].

What made you convert to the Catholic Church? Did you ever consider the Eastern Orthodox Church? If so, why did you choose the Catholic Church over the Eastern Orthodox Church?

Thank you.[/quote]

My whole family converted to Catholicism. Before becomming Catholic we were non-denom. protestents. The first time we attended mass was at an amazing Catholic Church in Augusta,Ga called Most Holy Trinity. When Christ was elevated in the form of the eucharist my family had a physical "reaction". We were literally thrown into the back of the pew. This led us to believe that there was something more here extc..... Yes absoultly we considered joining the Eastern Orthodox Church. It was a great struggle for us. Eventually though, we were convinced that we should go with the seat of peter and chose Roman Catholicism. Hope I could help,
God Bless,
catholicrox

[Hulkster]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1718807' date='Dec 4 2008, 03:25 PM']First, the presence of the pope as the first among all bishops, completing the pattern of hierarchical structure seen everywhere else in the Church (father over the domestic church, priest over the parish, bishop over the diocese, archbishop uniting several dioceses, and finally pope uniting all bishops).

Second, which is kind of a corrolary to the first, is the Catholic Church's consistent stance on contraception, which is rooted in the first point because it's only by the pope's authority that we can say the Catholic Church is consistent. Within both Orthodox and Catholic Churches, there are priests and bishops who preach different stances, but Catholics can look above that fray of dissention to find a clear source of truth.

As biotechnology greatly advances in the coming decades, I think authoritative teaching on all the moral questions and dilemmas that are unthinkable today will require the pope's authority far more urgently than the Church has ever needed before.[/quote]

This is almost exactly the same reasons I chose Catholicism over Eastern Orthodoxy.

[Guest Andrew_the_convert]

Yes I considered Orthodoxy because I was a Baptist who hated Catholicism more than anything on earth. But then I read Bishop Ware's conversion story and he said that if you are in the west and don't wish to be protestant to just become Catholic, because it's easier. As well the Orthodox Church in our town refuses to welcome Non-Greeks, The Ukrainian Orthodox church in our town says that I have to learn Ukrainian first... not very evangelical....

Plus Orthodoxy still denies the apostolic doctrine of petrine supremacy, and it seems arbitrary to say that the Church would be deliberating on matters of faith and having councils until 1054 when suddenly it was pleasing to God to split it into chaos and 19 national churches all with confused bishoprics and no means of addressing modern problems.

As well St. Irenaeus explicitly speaks against it. Plus the Latins have all the coolest Church Fathers and theologians, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, etc.

Edited January 21, 2009 by Andrew_the_convert

[cmotherofpirl]

Welcome to the phamily:)