Time To End The War On Drugs

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1722180' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:04 AM']Treat the drug cartels like an army. Use military tactics against them on an apppropriate scale, execute dealers and imprison pushers and large quantity users for life without parole. Remove gangs via military action and you will see a reduction in the drug trade.

But you'll also have to change the way we deal with the poor to discourage drug use.

And the suburbanites will have to be targeted. They're large consumers, as well.[/quote]

That may fly in a country like Myanmar where they are ruled by a military junta, but not in America. Less government, not more government is the solution. Government is the reason we have problems with drugs in our society. Drugs were legal in this country for over a hundred years and when they were we had less problems, that is until government decided to get involved.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Winchester' post='1722180' date='Dec 8 2008, 01:04 AM']Treat the drug cartels like an army. Use military tactics against them on an apppropriate scale, execute dealers and imprison pushers and large quantity users for life without parole. Remove gangs via military action and you will see a reduction in the drug trade.

But you'll also have to change the way we deal with the poor to discourage drug use.

And the suburbanites will have to be targeted. They're large consumers, as well.[/quote]


Isn't that what they tried in the 80s?


Stop the war on drugs - but we're sooo close to winning!

[Hassan]

I think what's often missed with this discussion is that the "war on drugs" is in no way confined to America. It affects poor Columbian farmers as well, and the adverse affects on the "third world" is enough of a reason.

I say this as someone who has never done a drug in my life. Even drinking, I had wine with some friends over seas and tried some Vodka, I've never been drunk (not even close) in my life and have not consumed any alchohol in a long, long time. So I'm not just looking for an excuse, but I really think the "war on drugs" is a total failure and should be ended. Like others have said drug addiction ought to be treated, not punished.

[Niccolò]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1730252' date='Dec 17 2008, 08:20 AM']Less government, not more government is the solution. Government is the reason we have problems with drugs in our society. Drugs were legal in this country for over a hundred years and when they were we had less problems, that is until government decided to get involved.[/quote]

I generally agree that less centralized government is better, but I don't see how legalizing drugs will lead to less government. Legalization will simply trade a law enforcement problem for a public health problem, with the necessary increase of addicts and broken homes. Thus it's pretty likely, especially given the current political environment, that legalization will lead to more welfare and other government-sponsored social programs, not to mention the inevitable lawsuits against companies audacious enough to start selling drugs that largely have no therapeutic uses.

No, the way to deal with the supply side of the problem is to use military tactics against the supplies who themselves use military tactics. The demand side is trickier, but higher penalties would help.

[CatherineM]

The beginnings of gang war stuff is starting here. We've got guys coming here from other provinces, shootouts in the nicer parts of town, etc. It reminds me of OKC about 25 years ago. The chief of police kept saying it wasn't real gangs, just wannabes. The kids are still just as dead. We are in the poor part of town, so our drug dealers can't afford guns yet.

[Guest]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1730369' date='Dec 17 2008, 01:47 PM']Like others have said drug addiction ought to be treated, not punished.[/quote]

People doing crack, meth, hard drugs need to be punished.
Being punished is not always a bad thing.

[Guest]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1734421' date='Dec 23 2008, 03:53 PM']The beginnings of gang war stuff is starting here. We've got guys coming here from other provinces, shootouts in the nicer parts of town, etc. It reminds me of OKC about 25 years ago. The chief of police kept saying it wasn't real gangs, just wannabes. The kids are still just as dead. We are in the poor part of town, so our drug dealers can't afford guns yet.[/quote]

Like you said wannabes or not people are still dead. I dont think you can draw a line between the two.

Edited December 23, 2008 by Guest

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Niccolò' post='1734407' date='Dec 23 2008, 03:27 PM']No, the way to deal with the supply side of the problem is to use military tactics against the suppliers who themselves use military tactics.[/quote]

This was tried during Prohibition (Aka The War on the Drug Called Alcohol). In fact the first Catholic ever to run for President of the United States, Al Smith, was defeated by Herbert Hoover in part, because the Protestant ethic in this country made the same arguements you're making. His political opponents ran against Smith on the slogan: "Rum, Romanism, and Ruin." Clearly trying to link his Catholicism to his advocacy to ending the failed policy of Prohibition.

Prohibition didn't work not because alcohol is somehow inherently good and different from all other mind-altering drugs in existence. The reason Prohibition didn't work is because the cost, in terms of liberties, blood and treasure, far outweighs the cost of the problems of having alcohol legal. The same is true for "the war on drugs".
If you advocate the "war on drugs" then have the intellectual integrity to be consistent and argue for the re-Prohibition of alcohol. Arguing for one, and against the other is absurd.

Edited December 24, 2008 by Roamin'Catholic

[Nihil Obstat]

If some currently illegal drugs were legalized, would they still remain as expensive as they are now? Or at least close?
The fact remains that many drug addicts are dirt poor so that they can fuel their addiction. That's something that needs to end, in any way possible. If making those drugs illegal lessens the problem, then the drugs should be illegal.
If there legal, I have a suspicion that we'd see more people (who normally wouldn't consider buying drugs, since it was against the law) becoming addicted to something like heroin, and spending every cent on it, to the extremely detriment of themselves, their families, etc.


Edit:

Of course we all recognize that alcohol and tobacco and nicotine, and even perscription painkillers are addictive as well. Most illegal drugs however, are considered to be far more addictive. I've heard from some police officers that my parents know that with certain drugs... I think it was crystal meth, you can become 100% addicted trying it [i]only once.[/i]

Edited December 31, 2008 by Nihil Obstat

[cmotherofpirl]

Putting people in jail for using drugs is a waste of time and money, since they can get the drugs in jail, but have to pay for them in evil ways. People need to be sentenced to Community Rehab Centers, so they can still take care of their families.

[T-Bone _]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1740060' date='Dec 31 2008, 05:21 PM']Putting people in jail for using drugs is a waste of time and money, since they can get the drugs in jail, but have to pay for them in evil ways. People need to be sentenced to Community Rehab Centers, so they can still take care of their families.[/quote]

100% agreed!

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1740027' date='Dec 31 2008, 07:55 PM']Most illegal drugs however, are considered to be far more addictive. I've heard from some police officers that my parents know that with certain drugs... I think it was crystal meth, you can become 100% addicted trying it [i]only once.[/i][/quote]

This is another problem with our drug policy, which is the blatant use of pseudo-science to scare people. I about fell over laughing in my chair when you wrote, " I've heard from some police officers that my parents know that with certain drugs... I think it was crystal meth, you can become 100% addicted trying it [i]only once." or how about the part where you wrote, "Most illegal drugs however, are considered to be far more addictive." Says who?!? You can't argue that crack cocaine or crystal meth or whatever is anymore addicting than cigarettes, especially if you are going to cite some police officers that your parents know as evidence for this. I would be willing to bet that all of these drugs are very addicting, regardless of their legal status. Do you really think that's how this country came to legalizing alcohol and tobacco and keeping all other drugs illegal, by only picking and choosing those drugs which are least addictive??? If that was the case, marijuana would have been legal a long time ago.

Those statements aren't facts; they are conjecture, they are heresay but they certainly aren't factual. You can't throw those kind of statements out there and expect to be taken seriously!

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1740027' date='Dec 31 2008, 07:55 PM']If some currently illegal drugs were legalized, would they still remain as expensive as they are now? Or at least close?
The fact remains that many drug addicts are dirt poor so that they can fuel their addiction. That's something that needs to end, in any way possible. If making those drugs illegal lessens the problem, then the drugs should be illegal.
If there legal, I have a suspicion that we'd see more people (who normally wouldn't consider buying drugs, since it was against the law) becoming addicted to something like heroin, and spending every cent on it, to the extremely detriment of themselves, their families, etc.


Edit:

Of course we all recognize that alcohol and tobacco and nicotine, and even perscription painkillers are addictive as well. Most illegal drugs however, are considered to be far more addictive. I've heard from some police officers that my parents know that with certain drugs... I think it was crystal meth, you can become 100% addicted trying it [i]only once.[/i][/quote]

Oh yeah, Nihil, I noticed your avatar of St Maximilian Kolbe. He was truly a holy man who died a martyr's death. He is now the patron saint of drug addicts which is very appropriate for this thread. God bless!

Edited January 2, 2009 by Roamin'Catholic

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1741345' date='Jan 2 2009, 08:12 AM']This is another problem with our drug policy, which is the blatant use of pseudo-science to scare people. I about fell over laughing in my chair when you wrote, " I've heard from some police officers that my parents know that with certain drugs... I think it was crystal meth, you can become 100% addicted trying it [i]only once." or how about the part where you wrote, "Most illegal drugs however, are considered to be far more addictive." Says who?!? You can't argue that crack cocaine or crystal meth or whatever is anymore addicting than cigarettes, especially if you are going to cite some police officers that your parents know as evidence for this. I would be willing to bet that all of these drugs are very addicting, regardless of their legal status. Do you really think that's how this country came to legalizing alcohol and tobacco and keeping all other drugs illegal, by only picking and choosing those drugs which are least addictive??? If that was the case, marijuana would have been legal a long time ago.

Those statements aren't facts; they are conjecture, they are heresay but they certainly aren't factual. You can't throw those kind of statements out there and expect to be taken seriously![/quote]
I'm a little bit confused with what you're saying.
I'd be willing to bet money that many illegal drugs... in particular 'hard drugs' are far more addictive that cigarettes. No, I don't have any scientific sources to back that up, but on the other hand, generally people don't need to be sent to the hospital because they're in withdrawl from nicotine... Sure, it's bad (I hear), and I'm not trivializing what people go through when they quit, but from everything I've heard, it's far worse for harder drugs, which implies to me that they're that much more addictive.
Of course some perscription drugs are fairly addictive... I don't know how much, but on the other hand, they're in theory controlled. How well they're controlled is another debate entirely.
I don't think it's entirely fair that you dismiss what we were told by very knowledgeable and experienced police officers. No, they aren't scientists, but they see the effects first hand every day.
I suggest that if that's what this debate comes down to, that we look up this up from as many sources as we can find. Personally, I'm fairly confident that illegal drugs by and large are more addictive than perscription drugs, which in turn are generally more addictive than legal drugs.