Pacifism

[farglefeezlebut]

Is pacifism heresy?
Is just war theory actual doga, or just a philosophy which most Catholics agree with?

[LivingStone]

There is a such thing as a just war and there is a such thing as self-defense, but both have certain criteria that need to be met. Obviously, war is always an evil, but there are (few) times when war is permitted:

"Because of the evils and injustices that all war brings with it, we must do everything reasonably possible to avoid it. The Church prays: 'From famine, pestilence, and war, O Lord, deliver us.;" -CCC 2327

We must do everything reasonably possible to avoid war. There are times in which there is a need for a legitimate defense by use of military force.
Here are the criteria:


"The strict conditions for legitimate defense by military force require rigorous consideration. The gravity of such a decision makes it subject to rigorous conditions of moral legitimacy. At one and the same time:

- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

- there must be serious prospects of success;

- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modem means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

These are the traditional elements enumerated in what is called the "just war" doctrine.

The evaluation of these conditions for moral legitimacy belongs to the prudential judgment of those who have responsibility for the common good." -CCC 2309

Edited December 6, 2008 by LivingStone

[CatherineM]

All the men in my family are pacifists, but they all still served during war time. My dad said no one wants a war to be over more than the guys in the fox holes. That doesn't mean that war isn't occasionally necessary. People just disagree on when it is necessary.

[Maximilianus]

Oh boy, I feel a debate brewing.

I'd like to throw in the mix that pacifism is like another recently mentioned ism on here in which it comes in different degrees and definitions. For example CatherineM's family are one type, which I'm speculating disapproved of all kinds of violence unless there is absolutely no other option. Then you have pacifist that would rather die than kill, even when they have the means to stop or defeat an aggressor.

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Maximilianus' post='1720699' date='Dec 5 2008, 11:40 PM']Oh boy, I feel a debate brewing.

I'd like to throw in the mix that pacifism is like another recently mentioned ism on here in which it comes in different degrees and definitions. For example CatherineM's family are one type, which I'm speculating disapproved of all kinds of violence unless there is absolutely no other option. Then you have pacifist that would rather die than kill, even when they have the means to stop or defeat an aggressor.[/quote]

You certainly pegged my dad. The only spanking he ever gave out was when he caught my brother hitting me. He said men don't hit ladies, and when my brother mentioned that I wasn't a lady, well, it kind of went bad for my brother at that point. The only two times he raised his hands in anger after leaving the Army that I know of was when he found out his supervisor was stealing parts from the garage and selling them. There was a chain involved, and the union helped him keep his job. The other time was when he caught someone stealing money from the church. I saw three guys having to hold him back from pummeling the guy. My godfather was a smallish Hispanic man, and he had a hold my dad's right arm, and my dad was lifting him off the floor. I didn't know whether to laugh, or pile on to help.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

So is it okay for Catholics to be totally against all types of violence? or is it not allowed?

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote]"In the light of the Gospel and from an analysis of the church’s teaching on conscience, it is clear that a Catholic can be a conscientious objector to war in general or to a particular war ‘because of religious training and belief.’ . . .we should regard conscientious objection and selective conscientious objection as positive indicators within the Church of a sound moral awareness and respect for human life."[/quote]
The U.S. Bishops’ Declaration on Conscientious Objection and Selective Conscientious Objection (1971)

-

Edited April 9, 2009 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830027' date='Apr 9 2009, 02:58 PM']So is it okay for Catholics to be totally against all types of violence? or is it not allowed?[/quote]

Of course it is allowed, but we are also allowed to use violence and deadly force under certain limited circumstances. That's important to remember. As an example, I believe in just war, self defense, and defense of my family, but only as a last resort. I believe that the death penalty is no longer necessary, but faithful Catholics are allowed to disagree with me. So if your personal beliefs do not allow you to even defend yourself, it's okay, so long as you remember that other Catholics are allowed to believe otherwise. We often get into arguments here over differences of personal beliefs when both perspectives on the issue are allowed under church doctrines.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='farglefeezlebut' post='1720622' date='Dec 5 2008, 11:01 PM']Is pacifism heresy?
Is just war theory actual doga, or just a philosophy which most Catholics agree with?[/quote]
I don't know about formal heresy, but I'd say that complete pacifism would be unChristian. I think we have an obligation to defend certain people, our faith, etc. I'm not thinking too hard about this, but that's what's coming to mind.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1830040' date='Apr 9 2009, 04:08 PM']Of course it is allowed, but we are also allowed to use violence and deadly force under certain limited circumstances. That's important to remember. As an example, I believe in just war, self defense, and defense of my family, but only as a last resort. I believe that the death penalty is no longer necessary, but faithful Catholics are allowed to disagree with me. So if your personal beliefs do not allow you to even defend yourself, it's okay, so long as you remember that other Catholics are allowed to believe otherwise. We often get into arguments here over differences of personal beliefs when both perspectives on the issue are allowed under church doctrines.[/quote]


awesome. the catechism promulgates the just war theory. As Catholics don't we have to submit to it?

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830078' date='Apr 9 2009, 03:33 PM']awesome. the catechism promulgates the just war theory. As Catholics don't we have to submit to it?[/quote]

We should believe that it is allowed, but you can certainly be a conscientious objector. Since we have an all voluntary military at present, that's a moot point. I would certainly hope that if our country came under attack that you would be willing to defend the vulnerable. No one can force you to use deadly force to defend yourself, but there is really no way to know how you would actually react until such a circumstance is before you.

I believe in non-violent protest, but I have defended myself when put into that situation. If either my home country or my adopted country were under attack, I would do what I could. They would never take someone so crippled in the military, but I would do what I could. If my church came under attack, I would also use whatever means I had to defend it. There have been situations where people have stolen the Eucharist for purposes of desecration. I wouldn't use deadly force, but I would certainly be willing to use force to prevent a desecration. If it took violence to prevent an attack on the Pope, and it was within my ability, I hope I would be able to answer that call as well. I'm fairly certain that I could use deadly force to protect my family, but if called to walk peacefully to the lions, I hope I could find the courage to do so.

[Nihil Obstat]

Wouldn't it be against Church teaching to not defend one's own life in any moral way possible against unjust aggression?

[philothea]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1830121' date='Apr 9 2009, 05:26 PM']Wouldn't it be against Church teaching to not defend one's own life in any moral way possible against unjust aggression?[/quote]
I think you'd have a hard time finding justification for that in the gospels...

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1830119' date='Apr 9 2009, 05:24 PM']We should believe that it is allowed, but you can certainly be a conscientious objector. Since we have an all voluntary military at present, that's a moot point. I would certainly hope that if our country came under attack that you would be willing to defend the vulnerable. No one can force you to use deadly force to defend yourself, but there is really no way to know how you would actually react until such a circumstance is before you.

I believe in non-violent protest, but I have defended myself when put into that situation. If either my home country or my adopted country were under attack, I would do what I could. They would never take someone so crippled in the military, but I would do what I could. If my church came under attack, I would also use whatever means I had to defend it. There have been situations where people have stolen the Eucharist for purposes of desecration. I wouldn't use deadly force, but I would certainly be willing to use force to prevent a desecration. If it took violence to prevent an attack on the Pope, and it was within my ability, I hope I would be able to answer that call as well. I'm fairly certain that I could use deadly force to protect my family, but if called to walk peacefully to the lions, I hope I could find the courage to do so.[/quote]

I'm having a hard time understanding this.

So I can believe all war is immoral, while at the same time accepting the Just War Theory?

I must be missing something

Edited April 9, 2009 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[philothea]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' post='1830244' date='Apr 9 2009, 07:03 PM']I'm having a hard time understanding this.

So I can believe all war is immoral, while at the same time accepting the Just War Theory?

I must be missing something[/quote]
You shouldn't condemn individuals or nations for engaging in a just war, or consider that they must be necessarily doing evil.

You do not have an obligation to participate in warfare yourself, and this position is not morally inferior.