mortify Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 (edited) [img]http://www.geocities.com/mort_ja/feast.jpg[/img] [i]Fraction panis[/i] ("the ceremonial breaking of the eucharistic bread for distribution") in the Greek chapel of the Catacombe di Priscilla in Rome. Scholars who have analyzed this fresco since the 1890's say it depicts seven people, six male and one female, celebrating the Eucharist. The Presider is the one sitting on the chair towards the left, he is breaking Bread in his hands and has a cup immediately in front of him. In the 1980's, Dorothy Irvin claimed the fresco depicted women, and that this was evidence for the existence of female priests. What do you think? Edited December 31, 2008 by mortify
cmotherofpirl Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 Considering the bad state of preservation, how can anyone say who is present? If you mean the lady with a blue scarf she is standing behind them and looks to be serving.
HisChildForever Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 (edited) Except for the man in the middle, the others look like women. But seriously, I only assume this because it looks like their hair is in buns. Oh, I voted "no" because even if there is a female, that doesn't mean anything. How do we know this female is a priest? Maybe she's like...the first EM. Edited December 31, 2008 by HisChildForever
DominicanPhilosophy Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 You can't really tell - as cmotherofpirl said, the bad state of preservation makes it impossible to make an assumption such as the "scholars" have. +JMJD
cmotherofpirl Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 CATACOMBS OF PRISCILLA Via Salaria, 430 – 00199 ROME Phone: +39 06 86 20 62 72 / +39 06 86 38 46 72; Fax: +39 06 86 39 81 34 info.priscilla@flashnet.it www.catacombedipriscilla.com Director: Mother Eugenia Campagna Closed Mondays Closed in August Bus ATAC: 86, 92, 310 The noblewoman Priscilla was probably the one who founded the cemetery or donated the area on which it arose. As an inscription of the catacomb attests, Priscilla was related to the noble gens Acilia. We know from the historians of the time that Acilio Glabrione, a consul from 91 A.D., was condemned to death by Domitian, probably for being a follower of Christ. The martyrs buried at Priscilla include the brothers Felix and Philip, who were probably martyred under Diocletian, together with their mother, St. Felicitas, and five other brothers: Alexander, Martial, Vitale, Silano and Gennarus. Many popes were also buried at Priscilla: Marcellinus (296-304), Marcellus (308-309), Sylvester (314-335), Liberius (352-366), Siricius (384-399), Celestine (422-434) and Vigilius (537-555). On the upper level the most important nuclei of the catacomb are located. The cubiculum of Velata is decorated with paintings from the second half of the third century representing the marriage, motherhood and death of the deceased woman in the cubiculum. The large niche of Our Lady with the Baby and the prophet Balaam (according to the prevailing identification) pointing to a star, represents the most ancient image of the Mother of God in the West (230-240). In the region of the central sandstone there is an ancient pozzolana quarry that was re-utilized in order to put poor loculi there closed by bricks with simple painted inscriptions. The cryptoportico with the Greek Chapel is a large underground masonry area that originated as a noble family burial ground that was later connected to the catacomb. The Greek Chapel owes its importance to the very ancient cycles of pictures decorating it (second half of the third century). In the hypogeum of the Acili, which was originally a water tank, the inscriptions of the Acili have been found and exhibited. Inside Villa Ada the basilica is found which Pope St. Sylvester had erected near the tomb of Felix and Philip.
CatherineM Posted December 31, 2008 Posted December 31, 2008 If you saw an old painting of the founding fathers in their proper wigs, you might be under the false impression that they were women.
mortify Posted January 1, 2009 Author Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1739988' date='Dec 31 2008, 06:51 PM']Considering the bad state of preservation, how can anyone say who is present? If you mean the lady with a blue scarf she is standing behind them and looks to be serving.[/quote] lol, I was thinking the same thing... I think to actually determine what's there you would have personally analyze it, and yes, that lady does appear to be serving!
Nihil Obstat Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 Even if you could prove they were women, it's hard enough to definitively say that they're celebrating Mass. For me at least.
Archaeology cat Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1740015' date='Dec 31 2008, 11:34 PM']If you saw an old painting of the founding fathers in their proper wigs, you might be under the false impression that they were women.[/quote] Quite true. And what about those who insist that the Apostle John in The Last Supper is really a woman due to his long hair? But the preservation of this one makes it more difficult, definitely.
DominicanPhilosophy Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I agree with all you guys have said..and even with some of our modern art, no one knows what's in the paintings.
CatherineM Posted January 1, 2009 Posted January 1, 2009 I'd first want a verifiable source, such as the artist's diary, stating exactly what we are looking at. Is it really a mass, or just a dinner? Next that the presider was in fact a female, and finally that it was a painting of an actual event. I might have a dream about the Virgin Mary presiding over a Eucharist in heaven or something, and then paint it.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1740484' date='Jan 1 2009, 11:07 AM']I'd first want a verifiable source, such as the artist's diary, stating exactly what we are looking at. Is it really a mass, or just a dinner? Next that the presider was in fact a female, and finally that it was a painting of an actual event. I might have a dream about the Virgin Mary presiding over a Eucharist in heaven or something, and then paint it.[/quote] Risky. Someone may call you a heretic. That made me just wonder though... Hypothetically, could Mary say Mass? Or is the question a contradiction of itself...?
CatherineM Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1741225' date='Jan 1 2009, 11:14 PM']Risky. Someone may call you a heretic. That made me just wonder though... Hypothetically, could Mary say Mass? Or is the question a contradiction of itself...?[/quote] Short answer no, she wouldn't need to. Long answer, maybe. Jesus had trouble telling his mom no.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='CatherineM' post='1741229' date='Jan 1 2009, 11:25 PM']Short answer no, she wouldn't need to. Long answer, maybe. Jesus had trouble telling his mom no.[/quote] I was sorta thinking that the question doesn't make sense because there was no possibility of a Mass before Jesus' death... but I dunno. That's not a question I can even begin to approach with any degree of credibility.
DominicanPhilosophy Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 That is interesting to think about. Like CatherineM said, she wouldn't need to, even if God were ok with her doing so (which..might be a "no," considering she's not a man). She bore the Word made Flesh, served as the living tabernacle, and "found favor [totally] with God," so really, I don't think she could be much more united to the Blessed than she already was, ya know? Man, what an awesome feast we celebrate(d) today/yesterday [Jan 1]! +JMJD
Nihil Obstat Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 [quote name='DominicanPhilosophy' post='1741253' date='Jan 2 2009, 12:33 AM']That is interesting to think about. Like CatherineM said, she wouldn't need to, even if God were ok with her doing so (which..might be a "no," considering she's not a man). She bore the Word made Flesh, served as the living tabernacle, and "found favor [totally] with God," so really, I don't think she could be much more united to the Blessed than she already was, ya know? Man, what an awesome feast we celebrate(d) today/yesterday [Jan 1]! +JMJD[/quote] Speaking of the feast day... I'm actually ridiculously annoyed that I was forced to miss it! My parents forgot about it, and by the time I had brought it up, thinking we were probably going to be late, it turned out that it was too late to be ready to go. So I missed it. I was actually really really looking forward to going an extra time this week.
mortify Posted January 2, 2009 Author Posted January 2, 2009 The Catholic Encylcopedia has an entry on this: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06165a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06165a.htm[/url] If I recall correctly this fresco is above what they believe to be an ancient altar. It's the only fresco where a woman is shown veiled, while other meal scenes have them unveiled. The presider at the end of the table has a beard and is breaking bread, in front of him a chalice. Their also appears fish which would represent Christ. The article goes into greater detail.
VoTeckam Posted January 2, 2009 Posted January 2, 2009 Wait a sec... they all look like women... ONLY women should be priests!
Nihil Obstat Posted January 3, 2009 Posted January 3, 2009 [quote name='VoTeckam' post='1741584' date='Jan 2 2009, 02:00 PM']Wait a sec... they all look like women... ONLY women should be priests![/quote] Uh oh! We've got it all wrong guys! The priesthood is for *women* only, not men only. Also the Pope must be elected by atheists and pagans, not cardinals. Wow, it makes so much sense in hindsight. Live and learn I suppose.
Vincent Vega Posted January 4, 2009 Posted January 4, 2009 "Does this fresco support the historical existence of female priests?" No more than it supports the historical existence of Huttese priests. (See second from left). [img]http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/starwars/images/8/82/Durga.jpg[/img]
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