Equal But Different.

[Hassan]

The Church, I am told, teaches that men and women are “equal but different”. I must confess I cannot make sense of this.

The principals of indiscernibles as expressed in second order logic is very clear. For all 'x' and all 'y' if 'x' is equal to 'y' then for all predicates 'P', 'P' is a predicate of 'x' if and only if 'P' is a predicate of 'y'.
Notationally expressed as
(x)(y)[(x=y)-->(P)(Px<--->Py)]
If the Church means that, as St. Paul says, “there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are Jesus one in Christ” and men are not superior to women or women to men but the are distinct with unique roles in society and the family then I understand that, but taken literally it seems quixotic.

[Era Might]

I posted this in the other thread:

A dollar bill and 100 pennies are equal amounts of money, yet they are different from each other. One is a bill, the other is a collection of coins.

[Hassan]

[i]QUOTE (Era Might @ Jan 7 2009, 12:14 AM)
A dollar bill and 100 pennies are equal amounts of money, yet they are different from each other. One is a bill, the other is a collection of coins.[/i]

Sure, they both have equal monetary value, but a pile of pennies is not equal to a dollar bill.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744900' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:20 PM']Sure, they both have equal monetary value, but a pile of pennies is not equal to a dollar bill.[/quote]
They can both purchase the same things. How are they not equal?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1744902' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:21 AM']They can both purchase the same things. How are they not equal?[/quote]
They are equal in terms of monetary value, but aside from that subset of qualities they are not equal. For example pennies are made of copper (I believer) while the dollar bill is made of cotton (I think).

I don't think the Church's position is necessarily wrong or incoherent, I just think this expression of it is.

[TotusTuusMaria]

The man and woman are perfectly equal in dignity - both being made to God's image and likeness. They are different physically though, which cannot be contested. They are different in their roles. They have different strengths and weaknesses. However, they are equal in dignity. They are both human beings. They are both children of God. They are both made in his image and likeness, and one is not inferior or superior than the other in this circumstance.

hence... equal but different.

Edited January 7, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744910' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:25 PM']They are equal in terms of monetary value, but aside from that subset of qualities they are not equal. For example pennies are made of copper (I believer) while the dollar bill is made of cotton (I think).

I don't think the Church's position is necessarily wrong or incoherent, I just think this expression of it is.[/quote]
A dollar bill and 100 pennies are equal, but they are not identical. As you said, they have their own unique qualities, even though they are equal in value. The same can be said of men and women. They are not identical, but they are equal in human dignity.

There are cases where it is better to use pennies, and there are cases where it is better to use dollar bills. In a similar way, men and women have unique roles for which they are uniquely suited.

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1744914' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:28 AM']The man and woman are perfectly equal in dignity - both being made to God's image and likeness. They are different physically though, which cannot be contested. They are different in their roles. They have different strengths and weaknesses. However, they are equal in dignity. They are both human beings. They are both children of God. They are both made in his image and likeness, and one is not inferior or superior than the other in this circumstance.

hence... equal but different.[/quote]

That makes perfect sense so long as it's understood in your sense and not supposed to be taken totally literally.

thanks CatholicSchoolGirl

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1744915' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:28 AM']A dollar bill and 100 pennies are equal, but they are not identical. As you said, they have their own unique qualities, even though they are equal in value. The same can be said of men and women. They are not identical, but they are equal in human dignity.

There are cases where it is better to use pennies, and there are cases where it is better to use dollar bills. In a similar way, men and women have unique roles for which they are uniquely suited.[/quote]

equality is a statement of identity.

that's how you can find unknown quantities in algebra.

Edited January 7, 2009 by Hassan

[cmotherofpirl]

Equal:
be identical or equivalent to;
be equal to in quality or ability;
having the same quantity, value, or measure as another.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744925' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:34 PM']equality is a statement of identity.[/quote]
If that were true, then no two human beings could be equals, since every person has an individual identity.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1744927' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:35 AM']Equal:
be identical or equivalent to;
be equal to in quality or ability;
having the same quantity, value, or measure as another.[/quote]

exactly

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744920' date='Jan 7 2009, 01:32 AM']That makes perfect sense so long as it's understood in your sense and not supposed to be taken totally literally.

thanks CatholicSchoolGirl [/quote]

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1744929' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:36 AM']If that were true, then no two human beings could be equals, since every person has an individual identity.[/quote]
They aren’t, but you can isolate subsets of qualities like dignity, or “before the law” etc.

I want to mention again saying something is not equal has taken the form of a pejorative, but this is sultural or psychological, not logical. You are not "equal" to me, that is to say you are not identical to me. But that does not mean you are any better or worse than me, are that there arn't subsets of qualities amongst us that arn't equal.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1744929' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:36 PM']If that were true, then no two human beings could be equals, since every person has an individual identity.[/quote]

This is what I was going to say.

For example, not everyone has the same vocation ("different") but we all have equal dignity as human beings ("equal").

[Hassan]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1744931' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:38 AM'][/quote]


sorry, I just remember the old name better

[Hassan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1744934' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:40 AM']This is what I was going to say.

For example, not everyone has the same vocation ("different") but we all have equal dignity as human beings ("equal").[/quote]
SetA: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10
SetB:2,4,6,8,10

Set A is not equal to Set B, but there are subsets amongst these two sets qhich are equal, like "2".

kind of

You and I are not equal, but we can be equal with respect to shared qualities like "dignity".

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744933' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:39 PM']They aren’t, but you can isolate subsets of qualities like dignity, or “before the law” etc.

I want to mention again saying something is not equal has taken the form of a pejorative, but this is sultural or psychological, not logical. You are not "equal" to me, that is to say you are not identical to me. But that does not mean you are any better or worse than me, are that there arn't subsets of qualities amongst us that arn't equal.[/quote]
When we say that two people are equals, we are referring to equality in human dignity.

There are other aspects besides human dignity in which people are not equals. For example, one person may be stronger than another person. But that is not what is meant by human equality. When the Declaration of Independence declares that "all men are created equal," it is referring to human dignity and human rights, not to strength or similar unequal characteristics.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Era Might' post='1744940' date='Jan 7 2009, 12:45 AM']When we say that two people are equals, we are referring to equality in human dignity.

There are other aspects besides human dignity in which people are not equals. For example, one person may be stronger than another person. But that is not what is meant by human equality. When the Declaration of Independence declares that "all men are created equal," it is referring to human dignity and human rights, not to strength or similar unequal characteristics.[/quote]


Sure, that’s what TotusTuasMaria was saying, and it makes perfect sense

[Era Might]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1744941' date='Jan 6 2009, 11:48 PM']Sure, that’s what TotusTuasMaria was saying, and it makes perfect sense [/quote]
Then I guess I don't understand what you're arguing against.