Medjugorje "work Of The Devil"

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7452"]http://www.cathnews.com/article.aspx?aeid=7452[/url]
[quote]Medjugorje "work of the devil": Ex Vatican exorcist
Published: June 03, 2008

Former Vatican exorcist Bishop Andrea Gemma has denounced alleged visions of Our Lady in the Bosnian town of Medjugorje as the "work of the devil" and a "diabolical deceit".

The UK Daily Mail reports that the Vatican has rejected claims made by the six Bosnian 'seers' that they have seen the Virgin Mary more than 40,000 times over the past 27 years

Bishop Andrea Gemma, 77, once the Vatican's top exorcist, told a magazine in Italy: "In Medjugorje everything happens in function of money: Pilgrimages, lodging houses, sale of trinkets.
"This whole sham is the work of the Devil. It is a scandal."

He predicted that the Vatican would soon crack down on the group.

The Medjugorje phenomenon began on June 25, 1981, when six children told a priest they had seen the Virgin on a hillside near their town. Some of the children also claim to have received ten secrets from Our Lady.

A church investigation dismissed the vision, and the Vatican banned pilgrimages to the site in 1985. But many Catholics ignored the ban.

Today, the seers own smart houses with security gates and tennis courts and expensive cars. One is married to a former US beauty queen.[/quote]

the link has glowing statute pic. i've seen weird stuff on video, that's probably not a fake video. there's tons of people with eye witness testimony.
the fruits are mixed, good and bad. i do know a lot of good, but a lot of bad, too. some might say God can use bad things, for good. so, if it's such a mixed bag, perhaps it's bad, as it's all be good fruit, if a heavenly apparition.
then, a long apparition like this is bound to draw controversial things regarding it from time to time, even if heavenly.

[url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&rlz=1T4GGIH_enUS242US242&q=medjugorje+satan"]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...edjugorje+satan[/url]

Edited January 16, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[CatherineM]

It is a good example of why we should wait for the church to document and authenticate these kinds of things.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[url="http://www.medjugorje.org/framorth1.htm"]http://www.medjugorje.org/framorth1.htm[/url]
on the other hand, another vatican exorcist, who at least speaks as if it might be true. the wya you talks, you might think he does believe in it, or tends to.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i do know people personally who might illustrate that it's all a fraud, but even them, it's controversial what i just said.
it'd be interesting to hear from more who's been there, or know of things regarding the place, that they think it's a fraud.
most i know of in that regard, all say great things about it. i wonder who much they really look into it tho.

[Selah]

Why would they call it a work of the Devil? Is this apparition doing any harm or leading anyone astray? hmm...

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Selah' post='1753163' date='Jan 16 2009, 06:00 PM']Why would they call it a work of the Devil? Is this apparition doing any harm or leading anyone astray? hmm...[/quote]
Not a very clear-cut answer, I'd expect.
I'm sure all apparitions could lead people astray through some kind of misplaced devotion... You know what I mean, right?

[Ziggamafu]

I've always felt torn on Medjugorje. There have been a lot of conversions. And then...well, there's the rest of the stuff (primarily revolving around the lifestyle of the seers) that does not fit in with any other approved apparition in Church history. I do recommend the book [i]Miracle Detective[/i], by Randal Sullivan, for anyone interested in learning about the apparitions.

[CatherineM]

I very much look at the fruits. Just comparing the Fatima seers with the Medjugorje ones says a lot to me.

[MithLuin]

If you claim to be holding conversations with the Virgin Mary, but really aren't - that would be a rather disgraceful sham.

I know the Vatican will never approve it until after the visions cease. As long as they are ongoing, all it is going to get is censure. The message - pray, fast and sacrifice - is good. So, that part of it is fine. Whether or not the apparitions are real is more problematic - and less important, anyway.

I think a lot of good has come out of it, and many people who have gone there on pilgrimage report a great peace from that place, and a deep faith held by the people there.

Some rather negative things have come out of it too, of course - Fr. Ken Roberts, one of the American priests who took youth there on pilgrimages throughout the '80s and '90s, has been accused of serious enough misbehavior that he is no longer allowed to present himself as a priest in public. On one of his pilgrimages there, he was involved in a minor exorcism - I don't know what the teens were messing around with, but he certainly thought it was demonic. Priests who were at the parish church in Medjugorje have also been condemned by the church.

Basically, if it is real, it is clear that Satan is attacking people involved...and it if isn't real, well...then it isn't real. Since believing in visions is such an optional thing, I try not to worry too much about that. But faith is in constant need of renewal, we are in constant need of repentence - and Medjugorje is a constant reminder of those things.

[bonkers]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' post='1753116' date='Jan 16 2009, 06:26 PM']i've seen weird stuff on video, that's probably not a fake video.[/quote]

Can you post? I've seen stuff on video (i.e. youtube) that most definitely is fake.

[Lounge Daddy]

[quote name='CatherineM' post='1753128' date='Jan 16 2009, 07:36 PM']It is a good example of why we should wait for the church to document and authenticate these kinds of things.[/quote]
I agree.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1753475' date='Jan 16 2009, 10:20 PM']Some rather negative things have come out of it too, of course - Fr. Ken Roberts, one of the American priests who took youth there on pilgrimages throughout the '80s and '90s, has been accused of serious enough misbehavior that he is no longer allowed to present himself as a priest in public. On one of his pilgrimages there, he was involved in a minor exorcism - I don't know what the teens were messing around with, but he certainly thought it was demonic. Priests who were at the parish church in Medjugorje have also been condemned by the church.

Basically, if it is real, it is clear that Satan is attacking people involved...and it if isn't real, well...then it isn't real. Since believing in visions is such an optional thing, I try not to worry too much about that. But faith is in constant need of renewal, we are in constant need of repentence - and Medjugorje is a constant reminder of those things.[/quote]
What do you mean by 'minor exorcism'? I'm assuming you aren't referring to baptism.

[MithLuin]

No. I mean that it was a weird situation (ie, the room got [i]really[/i] cold) and a kid was having a fit of some sort. Throwing holy water on the kid solved the problem. After that, this particular bunch of teenagers took the saying-the-rosary-and-going-to-mass part of the pilgrimage a lot more seriously. I didn't want to call it a real exorcism, though, because it was rather impromptu.

He related this event at a talk I heard from him in 1992. One of the girls who had been on the pilgrimage and witnessed this also spoke.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MithLuin' post='1753510' date='Jan 16 2009, 10:51 PM']No. I mean that it was a weird situation (ie, the room got [i]really[/i] cold) and a kid was having a fit of some sort. Throwing holy water on the kid solved the problem. After that, this particular bunch of teenagers took the saying-the-rosary-and-going-to-mass part of the pilgrimage a lot more seriously. I didn't want to call it a real exorcism, though, because it was rather impromptu.

He related this event at a talk I heard from him in 1992. One of the girls who had been on the pilgrimage and witnessed this also spoke.[/quote]
Ok, I understand.
Unfortunately I act like a know-it-all when it comes to exorcisms due to having read Fr. Amorth's two books.
So saying minor exorcism implies baptism to me, and major exorcism is what we tend to think of. Stuff in between wouldn't count.
Strictly, of course.
...and I get mad when people are all pedantic with me... I'm terrible.

[MithLuin]

Ah, I have only read one of his books, so I bow to your superior knowledge But I thought blessing yourself with holy water is also a minor exorcism?

[Selah]

[quote]Not a very clear-cut answer, I'd expect.
I'm sure all apparitions could lead people astray through some kind of misplaced devotion... You know what I mean, right?[/quote]

Yes...I guess I'm a little against him calling it a "work of the Devil" because we don't know who or what the apparition is. If it is Mary, we've been calling her a Devil, and...well, that sounds really, really wrong. I dunno.

[KnightofChrist]

The Vatican has banned Catholics from going to Medjugorje? Really then why do so many in [u]rebellion[/u] go?

Edited January 17, 2009 by KnightofChrist

[MithLuin]

No, it has not banned people from going. It has given general disapproval of organizing pilgrimages there, though.

[quote]At the Vatican, officials said they are still monitoring events at Medjugorje, but emphasized that it was not necessarily the Vatican's role to issue an official judgment on the alleged apparitions there.

[b]More than once in recent years, the Vatican has said that dioceses or parishes should not organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje. That reflects the policy of the bishops.

But the Vatican has also said Catholics are free to travel to the site, and that if they do the church should provide them with pastoral services. [/b]

That has left a margin of ambiguity among Catholics. Adding to the confusion have been claims that the late Pope John Paul II strongly supported Medjugorje in various private statements; the Vatican has never confirmed those statements.

After Pope Benedict was elected, it was rumored that as a cardinal he had once traveled incognito to Medjugorje, and that as pope he could be expected to officially approve the site as a Marian shrine.

In his February visit to the Vatican, Bishop Peric said he spoke to the pope about these rumors, and that the pontiff only laughed in surprise.

[url="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0603480.htm"]CNS, 2006[/url][/quote]

A pilgrimage site generally needs Chruch approval. If the Church approved of pilgrimages to Medjugorje, it would be condoning the visions as authentic. She [u]will not[/u] do that with them being ongoing - even if the people in charge clearly thought they were authentic, it would be imprudent to give an official okay (because if it were something demonic, the messages could continue, but now saying something very inappropriate.) One of the main reasons for caution/skepticism has been the sheer number of messages, which has led at least one evaluation to say that there might have been something supernatural in the beginning, but there is nothing now. People who do consider the messages to be real see the repetitiveness as a Mother saying, "Now, how many times do I have to tell you...?"

But if you would like to read the Vatican's statements (through the CDF and the official spokesman, Navarro-Valls), go [url="http://www.medjugorje.org/declars.htm"]HERE[/url]. The upshot is: private pilgrimages (even groups) are fine, but official church-sponsored (ie, organized by the parish or diocese) trips are inappropriate.


As for the article in the OP, Bishop Gemma's comments were made [i]in anticipation[/i] of the Vatican's conclusion. (The original article was from the UK's Catholic Herald, found [url="http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/articles/a0000299.shtml"]HERE[/url]) Meaning, he thinks that the investigation begun in 2006 will have a negative conclusion, but the Vatican hasn't actually made public any conclusions yet. Up until 2006, the Vatican has supported the local bishop in his condemnation of the events, so I agree that it seems likely the Vatican itself will reach the same conclusion. But, we'll see. [url="http://www.queenship.org/productdetails.cfm?sku=3062"]This book[/url] would suggest otherwise, but I do not know how accurate its information is.

When that many people visit, money is always involved and an issue, but I don't think that speaks of whether Mary is really there or not, any more than it spoke of whether Padre Pio's activities were supernatural. It is certainly a reason for the church to be cautious, though.

Edited January 17, 2009 by MithLuin

[dairygirl4u2c]

the 'spiritual advisor' of the seers, when the apparitions began, was in trouble for impregnating a nun before the apparitions began. he tried to hide it, unsuccessfully. the vatican made him go into solitude under pain of excommunication. he starts a new community, starts a relationship with a woman who is 'healed' by medjugorje. she later recently claims the whole medjugorje thing is a fraud. B16 was the bishop back before pope reprimanding the priest earlier.
[url="http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/features/2189236/part_4/sex-lies-and-apparitions.thtml"]http://www.spectator.co.uk/the-magazine/fe...paritions.thtml[/url]

mary gets dirty veil at apparition. etc
[url="http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/9463/medjugorje.html"]http://www.geocities.com/athens/oracle/9463/medjugorje.html[/url]

poem of the man god, on the forbidden books list, per B16, before he was pope. the founder of religious group in alabama, who prints it, is upset it's banned. mary suddenly says that the book is real, and not bad. the leader of that group, lives with millions, while his community, lives in trailors and near poverty. many come from there disillusionsed, that he's a brainwasher, and that it's all a hoax. he made his million printing about medjugorje, and taking their life's earnings. marriages end in divorce, when the inhabitants can't agree as to the place's validity. families are not allowed to speak to the outside world. the leader got his start, but having one of the seers, have an 'apparition' while there. he anticipated it, by buying a field, so it could become a pilgrimage. this all shows the potentially bad fruits of the book guy, and the apparition generally.
[url="http://jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm"]http://jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm[/url]


a main question about medjugorje is that people see etc miraculous things, and that they did the examination on the seers. i think they need to do another examination, the vatican. and, as for the other stuff, maybe the exorcist is right, an that's attributable to satan. or, maybe there's more to miracles than we really understand at this point.

Edited February 14, 2009 by dairygirl4u2c

[Oliver]

Im going there in the Easter Holidays with my family.