Nfp, Babies, And College Students

[havok579257]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' post='1754691' date='Jan 18 2009, 08:18 PM']I never said a couple had to enter into marriage debt free. I never said a couple has to be rich. Perhaps there is some previous baggage that you bring with you into this thread that causes you to read such statements into what I really did say. It seems that even asking questions, as I did in my last post, sends you into a fury. [i]Perhaps you are unable to answer those questions honestly without supporting my commonsense position?[/i]

Let's illustrate my position hypothetically:

Jim and Sarah live in an economically devastated country riddled with crime. Jim is uneducated but makes enough money - barely, but enough - to pay for the rent of an abandoned, rusty train-car in the nearby wasteland, and all minimum needs of food and clothing. He has a low debt-income ratio, having taken out a loan to buy a special haz-mat suit for a once in a lifetime job opportunity (given his background and capabilities) in scraping toxic waste from barrels. Now privately employed by a rich, Protestant entrepreneur and self-styled "missionary" named Mr. Ugly - who says that he is confident that Jim's responsibilities will increase gradually, along with pay - Jim hopes to earn $5,000 a year and have his debt paid off within three years. He also determines that he is capable of living off the remnants of dead animals near the barrels of waste, freeing up some extra income for another mouth to feed (should his new career not cause sterility). The overpowering stench of elderberries nauseates Jim with every step he takes, but he's a real saint about it and Sarah loves him for that. They visit their only local priest in a 500 mile vicinity, who assures them that sacraments don't matter since Vatican II and that the hip thing to do would be to shack up and sing Hindu songs like good, ecumenical, progressive Catholics should. They insist on being married and the padre reluctantly agrees.

Now. Are Jim and Sarah wealthy? No. Are they well-off by any stretch of the imagination? No. But Jim has worked out a plan with a budget that a budding family can subsist on (barely), does not have to worry about any debt that is too much for his income, and overall has responsibly considered that there would be no undue burdens laid upon his family (more than what they will have in their country and state of affairs, regardless) by marrying now. [b]In short, although Jim might use NFP to space his children, [u]the thought of having one does not overwhelmingly scare him, does not forcefully deter him[/u], does not cause him prolonged hesitation and serious questioning as to whether or not right now is the right time to marry Sarah; [u]he has made a plan, assessed his status and future risks the best that he is able, [i]and has made sure that his debt to income ratio would not threaten a budding family in accordance with that plan.[/i][/u][/b] Jim has used caution, care, and patience out of love and respect for his future family. Jim is read to marry Sarah!

...now if only they can pull their only local priest's nose out of that New-Age magazine...[/quote]


I'm not even going to adress your first part, because its just flame bait.

And again, why not answer my question. Most of the world's population is just above or at the poverty line and will continue this route for most of their lives. Their income will never be more than a minimal amount more then their debt. So should over half the world population not marry?


And once again, the OP said it would be a strain financially if they had a child, but he WOULD make it work.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1754732' date='Jan 18 2009, 09:38 PM']I'm not even going to adress your first part, because its just flame bait.

And again, why not answer my question. Most of the world's population is just above or at the poverty line and will continue this route for most of their lives. Their income will never be more than a minimal amount more then their debt. So should over half the world population not marry?


And once again, the OP said it would be a strain financially if they had a child, but he WOULD make it work.[/quote]

1. If the OP thinks he can do it responsibly then good for him! Most of my few posts in this thread have been directed at your brash encouragement to marry without regard for finances.

2. Once people have entered into marriage, they must carry whatever financial cross their irresponsibility has carved; my admonishment is toward the unmarried youth, who by no means are forced into a debt-enslaved lifestyle. Those who are unmarried [i]and already in an [u]excessive[/u] amount of debt and financial [u]turmoil[/u][/i] - to the point that they fearfully gulp down the immediate and ongoing necessity for NFP - enter into marriage irresponsibly. This has nothing to do with poverty and everything to do with self-discipline, regardless of the number of debt-enslaved singles in this world. Manageable debt that poses no threat to one's spouse and potential children is one thing. It is quite another to be in a state of financial duress that causes one to look upon the prospect of children only with apprehensive trepidation.

Now I've answered your questions. You answer mine. Be honest.

[Tinkerlina]

I never knew NFP and its uses were so defined-I thought it was really to used to plan your family but at the same time being open to anything that could happen-I didn't know the reasons were as limited as they are. -Katie

[Ziggamafu]

Also:

I would be interested if you could prove your assertion that the income of "[b]over half [/b]the world population" will "[b]never [/b]be more than a minimal amount more then their debt." Over fifty percent of the globe is [i]irrevocably enslaved[/i] to debt? Really? You make it sound like debt is a tyrannical and unstoppable force of nature for six out of ten individuals. Remember that bills and debt are two different things. One can live from paycheck to paycheck and not be enslaved to debt. I didn't know that over 50% of all humans had [i]access [/i]to credit, let alone enough credit that they could enslave themselves to debt!

I'm not denying you, I'm honestly curious what the facts are behind what you have said. Even if it is true, I would think my position is all the more important to maintain, for obvious reasons.

[Maggyie]

All I can say is that entering a marriage in the middle of serious financial problems is a recipe for disaster, regardless of whether there are going to be kids involved. One of the dirty little secrets of an otherwise great university like Franciscan at Steubie is the number of divorces among all the good Catholic graduates. Two people who are paying Franciscan's atrocious tuition rate meet there, get married right after graduating with an unemployable degree like scholastic theology, and then get buried under 100,000+ in debt. And that is not even counting the interest that COMPOUNDS. It is not like you can pay $40,000 a year of your salary toward loans and actually pay down $40,000 of the principal, in fact that $40,000 is really only paying off $30,000 of the debt or less.

I mean that is a house we are talking about. And unlike a mortgage there is no foreclosure process and you can not get rid of the debt through bankruptcy. Of all my family and friends I can't think of a marriage that could withstand that kind of pressure.

Then again... my dad is still paying off his college loans and he is 54 and has been married for 26 years. I think he owes $100 and he just won't pay it off... it's something he's hanging on to for some reason, lol!

In my current issue of Forbes there is an article called "The Great College Con: High Cost, Low Value." Basically about how the middle class has been sold a bill of goods that paying tens of thousands of dollars to get a college degree is the ticket to success. I wish I had read that before I made my parents dole out for my fancy BSJ that sits on my wall, because that's about all it does for me, it sits on my wall and looks pretty.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1754934' date='Jan 19 2009, 01:01 AM']I mean that is a house we are talking about. And unlike a mortgage there is no foreclosure process and you can not get rid of the debt through bankruptcy. Of all my family and friends I can't think of a marriage that could withstand that kind of pressure.[/quote]


That is the one thing that scares me about taking out student loans. You cannot get them discharged through bankruptcy. They are YOURS for life ... and if for whatever reason you can't make a payment on time, it can really damage your credit. I racked up tens of thousands in medical bills recently, but hospitals very rarely will report people to credit bureaus, so if I can't pay it, my credit will probably be okay. But ANY kind of loan, they will report you if they smell even a hint of late payment in the air ...

Having that kind of pressure on a single person is tough ... it can keep you from living where you want, doing the work you want ... add another person, maybe under the same pressure + kiddies ... I guess it's one of those things, it either breaks you apart or makes you stronger ... I can't imagine doing it though ...

[CatherineM]

In my first semester orientation class, required of all students, the first thing we did was a cost/benefit analysis of college (outlay + debt incurred) vs. just going to work. It was to make sure we knew what we were getting into, and whether we really wanted to be there. I guess they don't do that anymore.

[tinytherese]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1754934' date='Jan 19 2009, 12:01 AM']One of the dirty little secrets of an otherwise great university like Franciscan at Steubie is the number of divorces among all the good Catholic graduates.[/quote]



Why doesn't FUS offer more financial aid anyway? Like more than a thousand dollars or two in grants or scholarships and then a bunch of loans to be taken out? That's one of the reasons that I decided not to go there, is because of the poor amount of financial aid there.

Edited January 19, 2009 by tinytherese

[Slappo]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1754934' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:01 PM']All I can say is that entering a marriage in the middle of serious financial problems is a recipe for disaster, regardless of whether there are going to be kids involved. One of the dirty little secrets of an otherwise great university like Franciscan at Steubie is the number of divorces among all the good Catholic graduates. Two people who are paying Franciscan's atrocious tuition rate meet there, get married right after graduating with an unemployable degree like scholastic theology, and then get buried under 100,000+ in debt. And that is not even counting the interest that COMPOUNDS. It is not like you can pay $40,000 a year of your salary toward loans and actually pay down $40,000 of the principal, in fact that $40,000 is really only paying off $30,000 of the debt or less.[/quote]

That's exactly why I'm going back home after I graduate from Franciscan to get a second degree in Business/Accounting... I have 80,000 in loans upon graduation and a degree in theology. Two more years and about 5,000 more and I'll have a second degree from an accredited univerisity back home in business/accounting... a field that can actually get a job to support a family (and pay for my first degree).

The question then is... knowing the amount of strain those loans will put on a marriage... is getting married and using NFP until some of that strain is released, a morally sound decision. I have yet to meet with a friar here on campus about it, but hope to do so tomorrow.

I have yet to see reasoning from Ziggamafu as to why it would be wrong to practice NFP starting in a marriage where a child could be supported responsibly if one came along. I mean... the same falls true for any marriage that chooses to use NFP while having financial problems... they still have to accept the child and responsibly care for him/her through the financial turmoil. It doesn't have to be as dire a reason as not being able to clothe or feed the baby from what I know of NFP and theology.

[Slappo]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1754967' date='Jan 18 2009, 10:37 PM']

Why doesn't FUS offer more financial aid anyway? Like more than a thousand dollars or two in grants or scholarships and then a bunch of loans to be taken out? That's one of the reasons that I decided not to go there, is because of the poor amount of financial aid there. [/quote]

It really is quite sad... No one coming out of that college with a degree in philosophy, theology, or catechetics, which they are so well known for.... will be able to work in that field and pay off loans.

[CatherineM]

With that background and a business degree, you could eventually get a job in the business section of the Chancellery.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1754617' date='Jan 19 2009, 12:12 AM']Agreed! I want to know how some of you managed 6 or 7 month long engagements! My engagement, if and when it happens, will be a year long, and that's only because my parish enforces that.[/quote]
I thought 7 months was long! We had everything taken care of around 5 or 6 months into the engagement. But the parish hall made it easy for the reception, because they had a list of 3 or 4 caterers that they'd work with, which narrowed it down for us.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Slappo' post='1755008' date='Jan 19 2009, 02:21 AM'][b]I have yet to see reasoning from Ziggamafu as to why it would be wrong to practice NFP starting in a marriage [u]where a child could be supported responsibly[/u] if one came along.[/b] I mean... the same falls true for any marriage that chooses to use NFP while having financial problems... they still have to accept the child and responsibly care for him/her through the financial turmoil. It doesn't have to be as dire a reason as not being able to clothe or feed the baby from what I know of NFP and theology.[/quote]

[b]Woe, woe, woe! [/b]When did I [i]EVER [/i]say that it is "wrong" to practice NFP starting marriage when [i]"a child could be supported responsibly" [/i]should such a blessing occur? I have specifically targeted the irresponsibility of entering marriage in the midst of financial duress and debt enslavement, where a child is frantically and desperately avoided by means of NFP, which, although effective in itself, is not always effective in practice. Look back at my hypothetical illustration of Jim & Sarah, above. Jim is in a heckuva lot more trouble than you are but I specifically stated that he made his decision [i]responsibly[/i]. If you are able to draft a strategy that responsibly accounts for the well-being of a possible child, and you find that strategy reasonable, then of course you marry responsibly.

Edited January 19, 2009 by Ziggamafu

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1754861' date='Jan 19 2009, 12:00 AM']I never knew NFP and its uses were so defined-I thought it was really to used to plan your family but at the same time being open to anything that could happen-I didn't know the reasons were as limited as they are. -Katie[/quote]

The bottom line is NFP shouldn't be used with a contraceptive mindset. Every couple needs to speak with a good priest or someone they can confide in about their situation because there are a lot of grey areas. I wouldn't ever take advice on something like this from a message board. As you can see, it turns into a mess pretty quickly.

Edited January 19, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[MithLuin]

One of the reasons Franciscan does not offer more financial aid is because they can't afford it. They are a fairly young university, and their graduates run off to become priests and missionaries and such - not the best recipe for wealthy graduates donating to the school! Now, I'm not saying they don't get donations, because I'm sure they do, but for the most part, they don't have a large scholarship endowment, and that's just the way it is. Though perhaps they should make this a bigger priority.

I have four siblings, all of whom attended different colleges. The steepest bills came out of Franciscan...but my sister who went there became a nurse, which is a pretty solid paycheck after you get out. Of course, she spent her first year as a nurse volunteering in a third world country, but, I mean, now that she's working in this country, she's doing alright.

The most economical way to live upon graduating from college is to....move back home with your parents. Even if they charge you room and board, they are likely to give you a much better deal than actually living on your own. That way, you [i]can[/i] dedicate large chunks of your paychecks towards paying off loans. Not everyone has that option, of course.

I think that love will get you through many difficulties and hardships, so that if you are convinced you should be married and prepared to shoulder the burdens - go for it. But, if you naively think that there won't be any problems, and don't actually sit down and calculate how it's going to be....you are setting yourself up.

Edited January 19, 2009 by MithLuin