Fidei Defensor Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1761985' date='Jan 25 2009, 10:38 PM']Whether the SSPX will have to issue a statement saying that they accept Vatican II or not will be up to the Pope and the leaders of the SSPX. What people here at Phatmass think on this issue is really irrelevant.[/quote] What people here at Phatmass think about most issues is really irrelevant.
Tinkerlina Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1761985' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:38 AM']Whether the SSPX will have to issue a statement saying that they accept Vatican II or not will be up to the Pope and the leaders of the SSPX. What people here at Phatmass think on this issue is really irrelevant.[/quote] Why? As Catholics it is going to affect us and I'm already planning on lots of question from non Catholic friends-I'd like to continue discussing it, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. -Katie
Tinkerlina Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) [quote name='fidei defensor' post='1761988' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:40 AM']What people here at Phatmass think about most issues is really irrelevant.[/quote] Funnily enough you somehow found our thoughts somewhat engaging, as evidenced by your 4,000+ replies... -Katie Edited January 26, 2009 by Tinkerlina
Apotheoun Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1761996' date='Jan 25 2009, 09:42 PM']Why? As Catholics it is going to affect us and I'm already planning on lots of question from non Catholic friends-I'd like to continue discussing it, I don't think there's anything wrong with that. -Katie[/quote] Your views and interests will have a lot of importance when the Vatican appoints you as its representative in the talks with the SSPX.
Tinkerlina Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1762005' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:46 AM']Your views and interests will have a lot of importance when the Vatican appoints you as its representative in the talks with the SSPX.[/quote] Why the snippiness? Seriously. -Katie
Apotheoun Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1761998' date='Jan 25 2009, 09:44 PM']Funnily enough you somehow found our thoughts somewhat engaging, as evidenced by your 4,000+ replies... -Katie[/quote] Ah, don't mind Fidei Defensor, he loves reading what Phatmassers have to say.
Apotheoun Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1762007' date='Jan 25 2009, 09:47 PM']Why the snippiness? Seriously. -Katie[/quote] I'm not snippy at all. I'm just pointing out a fact, i.e., that if the Pope doesn't want a statement on Vatican II issued by the leaders of the SSPX you -- and a lot of other Catholics -- will just have to lump it.
Apotheoun Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Katie, I wouldn't worry about it too much. The Pope will do what he will do. That's part of what it is to be the Pope. Todd
Tinkerlina Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1762011' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:49 AM']I'm not snippy at all. I'm just pointing out a fact, i.e., that if the Pope doesn't want a statement on Vatican II issued by the leaders of the SSPX you -- and a lot of other Catholics -- will just have to lump it.[/quote] Yeah, we will but there's no need for sarcasm. -Katie
philothea Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Just looked around at the SSPX website and, man. I don't think I've been so irritated at a group of people in [i]years[/i]. Ugh. Going to try to ignore these topics for a bit and go look at pictures of kittens instead.
Tinkerlina Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='philothea' post='1762019' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:55 AM']Just looked around at the SSPX website and, man. I don't think I've been so irritated at a group of people in [i]years[/i]. Ugh. Going to try to ignore these topics for a bit and go look at pictures of kittens instead. [/quote] Same here-I should probably go look at kittens too...-Katie
MithLuin Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Kitties are good. [b]Apotheoun[/b], while I appreciate that we are not part of the official discussion, that does not mean that we can not discuss 1) history 2) news 3) the SSPX 4) the Magisterium None of us can speak [i]authoritatively[/i] on the process of the SSPX being brought back into communion with the Church...and I don't think any of us claimed to. Saying that there has to be some level of obedience to the pope and the Magisterium is just common sense...that's part of the definition of being in full communion .
Maximilianus Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 (edited) ...I'll stick with the FSSP until this all clears up. Edited January 26, 2009 by Maximilianus
KnightofChrist Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1761977' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:35 AM']The article didn't seem to definitively say that they didn't have to accept Vatican II, just that they didn't have to specifically, publically accept Vatican II if it is implicit in more general agreements. It is not going to be possible for them to come back into full communion with the Church if they reject the council. I would still think it would be wise for them to issue a public acceptance if and when they intend to accept Vatican II in order to clear up confusion. As for Cardinal Ratzinger's quote-I don't see why that has anything to do with the SSPX not having to acknowledge Vatican II. -Katie[/quote] We must accept dogma, what is not dogma does not necessarily have to be accepted. It is up to the Vatican if they will require the SSPX to publicly accept VII. If the article is true, it would seem the Vatican will not require the SSPX to do that, but merely require the Society to "recognize the Church, and the Magisterium of the Pope, that will suffice as an implicit acknowledgment." And there is a commonality between the article and the quote for Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, that Vatican II is not dogma. The quote is also similar to what I believe at least is the real issue the SSPX has with VII.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Maybe I'm confused, but aren't all councils like Vatican II considered binding for the Church?
MithLuin Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 Yes. I mean, no, you're not confused, but yes, the Council is binding.
Nihil Obstat Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='MithLuin' post='1762061' date='Jan 25 2009, 11:17 PM']Yes. I mean, no, you're not confused, but yes, the Council is binding.[/quote] Binding but not dogma? Think I'm missing a link.
KnightofChrist Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1762068' date='Jan 26 2009, 01:24 AM']Binding but not dogma? Think I'm missing a link. [/quote] If the story is true, honestly it is somewhat confusing to me as well. But if the story is true I would hope that the Vatican in some way explains this.
KnightofChrist Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 But then I've heard it said that Vatican II is not binding on Eastern Catholics, Apotheoun can you speak on this matter?
Resurrexi Posted January 26, 2009 Posted January 26, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1762042' date='Jan 26 2009, 12:07 AM']We must accept dogma, what is not dogma does not necessarily have to be accepted.[/quote] Uhh... not true. Can. 752 While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ's faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.
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