Why Do Some Christians Say Catholics Aren't Christian?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1764360' date='Jan 27 2009, 11:34 PM']Yea this issue really gets to me. In fact it's probably my biggest pet pieve when people say stuff like, "Yea I'm Catholic but wife is a Christian." Really, I wish that all christians would get the facts straight about each other's denominations, especially protestants getting the facts straight about what we catholics believe.

What's really sad is how many protestants get catholics that have not been properly catechized backed into corners with "Well why do you do this? This doesn't sound christian!" and these catholics don't know what to say, maybe even leave the church because of it. It's just pathetic the state of catechesis in the church is!!! So many go to catholic school for so many years or go to CCD classes for such a long perids of time and yet still don't know the faith. Why is it that non-catholics know their faith far better than we do? Catholic schools from pre-school through high school graduation did little for me. I learned about catholicism from EWTN, not from the catholic school system.[/quote]

In some ways, I'm about the best that we get in terms of young people coming out of 'the system'. I don't mean that in an "I'm better" kind of way, but more like I've been incredibly lucky in terms of faith direction. I don't think for a second it was up to anything other than the grace of God, because there's no reason for my faith to be the way it is.
Again, not in a prideful sort of way, but most people I know, and most that I've been in the 'seperate', Catholic system with since grade one, don't really care about the faith.

So it raises the question: is it us, or is it the system? I don't know.

[Arpy]

It's a tool to keep us in our place!

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1764360' date='Jan 28 2009, 05:34 AM']Yea this issue really gets to me. In fact it's probably my biggest pet pieve when people say stuff like, "Yea I'm Catholic but wife is a Christian." Really, I wish that all christians would get the facts straight about each other's denominations, especially protestants getting the facts straight about what we catholics believe.

What's really sad is how many protestants get catholics that have not been properly catechized backed into corners with "Well why do you do this? This doesn't sound christian!" and these catholics don't know what to say, maybe even leave the church because of it. It's just pathetic the state of catechesis in the church is!!! So many go to catholic school for so many years or go to CCD classes for such a long perids of time and yet still don't know the faith. Why is it that non-catholics know their faith far better than we do? Catholic schools from pre-school through high school graduation did little for me. I learned about catholicism from EWTN, not from the catholic school system.[/quote]
I know what you mean. A friend of mine freshman year helped me to start asking questions about Catholicism again. She couldn't always answer my questions, but I started researching. Unfortunately, her inability to always answer the questions means that, by senior year, after 4 years of some people systematically challenging her, she left the Church for a non-denominational congregation. I keep meaning to tell her the influence she had on me joining the Church, but never know how to approach it - any ideas?

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='Giolla' post='1764012' date='Jan 27 2009, 09:25 PM']Probably for the same reason that some Catholics (emphasis on some) believe that Protestants are not Christians.[/quote]

What Catholics have reasoned that Protestants are not Christians? They may be heretical but they are still Christian.
They are Christian, however they unfortunately lack the fullness of truth found in the Catholic church due to their heresy.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Roamin'Catholic

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Archaeology cat' post='1764458' date='Jan 28 2009, 05:15 AM']I know what you mean. A friend of mine freshman year helped me to start asking questions about Catholicism again. She couldn't always answer my questions, but I started researching. Unfortunately, her inability to always answer the questions means that, by senior year, after 4 years of some people systematically challenging her, she left the Church for a non-denominational congregation. I keep meaning to tell her the influence she had on me joining the Church, but never know how to approach it - any ideas?[/quote]
Send her a card at Easter and thank her for bringing you into the Church.

[Roamin'Catholic]

[quote name='tinytherese' post='1764360' date='Jan 28 2009, 01:34 AM']Why is it that non-catholics know their faith far better than we do?[/quote]

Because their Christian "faith" is so juvenile and so dumbed down, it seems a monkey would have the capacity to know and articulate such a faith. The depths of the Catholic faith go far deeper than the shallowness of Protestantism.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1764513' date='Jan 28 2009, 10:50 AM']What Catholics have reasoned that Protestants are not Christians? They may be heretical but they are still Christian.
They are Christian, however they unfortunately lack the fullness of truth found in the Catholic church due to their heresy.[/quote]
First you have to define what a Christian is.... I would start with a baptised person who accepts the Nicene Creed.

[HisChildForever]

I get the most frustrated when a non-Catholic Christian says that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints (some even say the Pope). Okay, huge misconception. So I explain why this is incorrect and what the truth is. However, they continue to tell me that I worship Mary, and yadda yadda. But I am the one who is Catholic here, not them, so why do they not believe what I am saying? I joined CTF and so many people there are just atrocious. One Protestant in a Catholic Q&A thread posted pictures of priests lay prostrate during their ordination (the Pope was the one presiding) and used it as an example of Catholics worshipping the Pope. Needless to say it was taken from a very obvious anti-Catholic and/or fundamentalist website, from what I read in the URLs.

Another argument in this person's post was in rebuttle to some text I offered essentially proving Peter as the first Pope. One example the text said was that whenever the Apostles were listed, Peter always came first (among other things). So this person threw a handful of Biblical locations (not the text, just like 1 Corinthians etc.) and rattled off something. Well, I dutifully looked them up and none of the Scriptural quotes were lists of the Apostles. In fact, one was two lines from the Gospel of John where Philip was being introduced, and it said something like "Philip, from the town of Andrew and Peter" or something. How this disproves Peter as Pope is anyone's guess. This same person had no basic knowledge of the history of the Bible. Another quote [she?] provided was Paul, in 1 Corinthians, where Paul was explaining the need for unification, speaking against separate Christian groups. So because Paul said something like "Do not say 'I belong to Paul' or 'I belong to Cephas'" and since Cephas [Peter] was not mentioned [b]first[/b] then of course he can't be Pope! Completely disregarding that Paul was the one who established the Church in Corinth so naturally he would put himself first, and not only that, but he was imitating what the Christians were saying!

I hate to say it but when in these debates I tend to get prideful and rude, but it is really so frustrating. If I was debating with a logical Protestant who understand Catholic teaching and just disagreed, that would be okay. But debating with these people who insist that Catholicism is what it is not is just...there are no words.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1764543' date='Jan 28 2009, 12:21 PM']I get the most frustrated when a non-Catholic Christian says that Catholics worship Mary and the Saints (some even say the Pope). Okay, huge misconception. So I explain why this is incorrect and what the truth is. However, they continue to tell me that I worship Mary, and yadda yadda. But I am the one who is Catholic here, not them, so why do they not believe what I am saying? I joined CTF and so many people there are just atrocious. One Protestant in a Catholic Q&A thread posted pictures of priests lay prostrate during their ordination (the Pope was the one presiding) and used it as an example of Catholics worshipping the Pope. Needless to say it was taken from a very obvious anti-Catholic and/or fundamentalist website, from what I read in the URLs.

Another argument in this person's post was in rebuttle to some text I offered essentially proving Peter as the first Pope. One example the text said was that whenever the Apostles were listed, Peter always came first (among other things). So this person threw a handful of Biblical locations (not the text, just like 1 Corinthians etc.) and rattled off something. Well, I dutifully looked them up and none of the Scriptural quotes were lists of the Apostles. In fact, one was two lines from the Gospel of John where Philip was being introduced, and it said something like "Philip, from the town of Andrew and Peter" or something. How this disproves Peter as Pope is anyone's guess. This same person had no basic knowledge of the history of the Bible. Another quote [she?] provided was Paul, in 1 Corinthians, where Paul was explaining the need for unification, speaking against separate Christian groups. So because Paul said something like "Do not say 'I belong to Paul' or 'I belong to Cephas'" and since Cephas [Peter] was not mentioned [b]first[/b] then of course he can't be Pope! Completely disregarding that Paul was the one who established the Church in Corinth so naturally he would put himself first, and not only that, but he was imitating what the Christians were saying!

I hate to say it but when in these debates I tend to get prideful and rude, but it is really so frustrating. If I was debating with a logical Protestant who understand Catholic teaching and just disagreed, that would be okay. But debating with these people who insist that Catholicism is what it is not is just...there are no words.[/quote]
I feel your pain. The problem is that you are offering a logical rational argument against an emotional one, and it loses just about everytime. You are arguing against everything they learned in Sunday school, what their grandparents and beloved pastors taught them - people they hold in high esteem. They cannot imagine that these people would even unintentionally deceive them, so you must be wrong.
The way to get around this can be sometimes a simple analogy. Where do they go when they are sick? the doctor. Why? because the doctor has studied for years. So you go to someone who is educated on the topic. Would you go to a mechanic? - no. So why would you go to a non-catholic to ask about being catholic? Its like asking someone who hasn't had a baby what childbirth is like.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1764548' date='Jan 28 2009, 11:32 AM']The way to get around this can be sometimes a simple analogy. Where do they go when they are sick? the doctor. Why? because the doctor has studied for years. So you go to someone who is educated on the topic. Would you go to a mechanic? - no. So why would you go to a non-catholic to ask about being catholic? Its like asking someone who hasn't had a baby what childbirth is like.[/quote]

Oh, that is very clever, thanks. I also try and assure them that I am not trying to convert but to teach. I tell them that if they want to disagree, that's fine, but just understand what you are disagreeing with.

And what you said earlier is also true. They are very passionate when they argue against Catholicism. It's sad how ignorant they look, which is so obvious a non-Christian would pick up on it. Their passion is a spiteful passion, which just gets me defensive and angry because I want to bash them a few times with my Catechism.

[[Edit.]]

Come to think of it, it would be terrific if a non-Catholic Christian stepped into threads like that and explained to fellow non-Catholics "No, you are incorrect, and here is why. Catholics believe..." They would probably be more apt to listen to someone like that than an actual Catholic.

Edited January 28, 2009 by HisChildForever

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1764574' date='Jan 28 2009, 01:22 PM']Oh, that is very clever, thanks. I also try and assure them that I am not trying to convert but to teach. I tell them that if they want to disagree, that's fine, but just understand what you are disagreeing with.

And what you said earlier is also true. They are very passionate when they argue against Catholicism. It's sad how ignorant they look, which is so obvious a non-Christian would pick up on it. Their passion is a spiteful passion, which just gets me defensive and angry because I want to bash them a few times with my Catechism.

[[Edit.]]

Come to think of it, it would be terrific if a non-Catholic Christian stepped into threads like that and explained to fellow non-Catholics "No, you are incorrect, and here is why. Catholics believe..." They would probably be more apt to listen to someone like that than an actual Catholic.[/quote]

Ok for some it is a spiteful passion, but for others you are challenging EVERYTHING they believe in. Sort of the reaction you would expect if the aliens landed and said "take me to your leader". When you get angry or defensive - stop and pray for them before you respond, mention it to St Paul you could use a little help here - then try to explain it in very simple terms.
The best way however, to teach Catholicism is to be a happy faithful Catholic.

When Brother Adam joined here he was a fervent Baptist who was defending catholics in just the way you mention

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1764515' date='Jan 28 2009, 02:55 PM']Send her a card at Easter and thank her for bringing you into the Church.[/quote]
Excellent idea! Thanks!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' post='1763885' date='Jan 27 2009, 08:44 PM']Yes, they do. However, they severed that line in the 1500s, for reasons that still make me slap my head.[/quote]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1764627' date='Jan 28 2009, 01:21 PM']Ok for some it is a spiteful passion, but for others you are challenging EVERYTHING they believe in. Sort of the reaction you would expect if the aliens landed and said "take me to your leader". When you get angry or defensive - stop and pray for them before you respond, mention it to St Paul you could use a little help here - then try to explain it in very simple terms.
The best way however, to teach Catholicism is to be a happy faithful Catholic.

When Brother Adam joined here he was a fervent Baptist who was defending catholics in just the way you mention [/quote]

Good 'ole St. Paul. It is hard to teach in simple terms, sometimes, so I provide Catechism references which don't go over very well.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1764671' date='Jan 28 2009, 02:55 PM']Good 'ole St. Paul. It is hard to teach in simple terms, sometimes, so I provide Catechism references which don't go over very well. [/quote]
No they won't.

You must start with simple terms, indeed with definitions if possible, because many times catholics and other groups have very differrent starting points. First, what is a christian? For us it is a baptised member of the church as stated in Scripture. However for a born-again type, who dismiss baptism as merely symbolic, they think [wrongly] they just have to say a sinners prayer and they are christian.

[sweens8403]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1764671' date='Jan 28 2009, 02:55 PM']Good 'ole St. Paul. It is hard to teach in simple terms, sometimes, so I provide Catechism references which don't go over very well. [/quote]

When I was a protestant I wasn't interested in what the catechism said. In my ignorance I imagined it as a sort of extra bible.

Whether all protestants realize it or not they believe in sola scriptura. Even though its an errant theological belief there is still enough for Catholic apologists to work with. Even a simple question like "Where did the Bible come from?" will trip them up. Some will admit that the Catholic Church put it together, then lost her infallability afterwards which flies in the face of Matthew 16. So show them. Supposing they take the other route and deny the Catholic Church's part in it ask them how they then feel like they have the high moral ground telling a Jehovah's Witness that their bible is full of errors, or why the book of mormon can't also be included in the canon.

Be careful to avoid getting TOO philosophical. Since most protestants haven't had any exposure to the mental exercise of philosophical reasoning they might not follow you and will then just assume you're wrong.

[Selah]

[quote]What Catholics have reasoned that Protestants are not Christians?[/quote]

Some Catholics I have come across on message boards believe this. Do the SSPX not teach this as well?

[Hilde]

Is the devil Christian? If he's not, isn't being a Christian more than just believing in the existence of God and all that?


USAirwaysIHS, you're not saying Protestants can't connect with God do you?

But what is usually the main reason though. Is it "saint worship", because that is not even something Catholics do/believe in. Is there something they believe in they're against?

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Hilde' post='1765019' date='Jan 28 2009, 09:57 PM']USAirwaysIHS, you're not saying Protestants can't connect with God do you?[/quote]
Of course I'm not.
I thought that quote of yours was trying to say that Protestants had some kind of special connection with God, as though we didn't.
That's why I was implying that, yes, they do have a special connection with God, and it's called the Catholic Church.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Roamin'Catholic' post='1764516' date='Jan 28 2009, 10:57 AM']Because their Christian "faith" is so juvenile and so dumbed down, it seems a monkey would have the capacity to know and articulate such a faith. The depths of the Catholic faith go far deeper than the shallowness of Protestantism.[/quote]
I'm sorry - not to sound like a proddy here - but that is an incredibly ignorant statement, and one that will not bring any protestants to the Faith if they heard it.

While it is true that the fullness of Catholic Faith is much deeper than any protestant form of Christianity, it's simply not true that all non-Catholic Christians have a faith that's "so juvenile and so dumbed down, it seems a monkey would have the capacity to know and articulate such a faith."
Many protestants, while unfortunately holding erroneous beliefs, have a knowledge of Scripture much deeper and extensive than many self-professed Catholics.
And it is false to claim that all protestant Faith is juvenile and dumbed-down. Many non-Catholics have a genuine love for Christ and desire to know truth, despite the fact that they do not have the fullness of Faith, and hold erroneous beliefs.
My parents were both converts from protestant sects, and my mom from a young age had read the Bible forwards and backwards. Unfortunately, I've seen many Catholics whose knowledge of Scripture is next to nil (and many know little more about the Catechism, for that matter). And many show no serious desire to learn about their Faith, either.
We need to face that there is a huge problem of lack of good catechesis among Catholics , and while the depths of the Catholic Faith are infinitely deep, the sad reality is that many know less of their faith than protestants not because of the depth of the Faith, but because many make little effort to even skim the depths of their Faith.
We should not be smug in our superiority over Protestants, but humbly try to bring non-Catholic Christians into the Church, acknowledging that some have a sincere Faith, and are seeking truth. Some of these may be brought into the fullness of Faith in the Church. But glibly (and ignorantly) writing off the Faith of all protestants as dumb and juvenile will achieve nothing, and likely turn sincere Christians away from the Catholic Faith.