Initial Conversion

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 12:18 PM'] This is going to be "rough" but bear with me. This is how I see justification/salvation


1. Salvation is made available to all [b]by[/b] God's Grace Alone.

2. The seperation that sin caused in man between us and God can only be reconciled in a covenant between God and man.

3. Christians follow the New Covenant, made available to us thorugh Christ's blood.

4. To enter into this covenant, takes faith. That's it. No meritorious sacrifices of the Mosiac law. Faith however, is more than a simple belief.

5. Faith, which is how we recieve a new relationship and new life in Christ, is applied to the soul initially through our response to the gospel- trust.

6. As the Christian matures though, there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.

7. No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation. We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven. [/quote]
Read James.

Faith is belief; James affirms this by saying "Faith without works is dead". Saying that faith is more than simple belief is the way that non-Catholics have build it into.

[b]Saying "faith includes works" and if we must have faith to be saved, then we must do good works since they go hand in hand with your definition of faith... so the reality is that the fundie POV contradicts itself in it's very definition of the term "faith" - where is this meaning before 1600 AD?[/b]


[quote]there is no room for this faith to die off, or be broken. It must remain active and alive.[/quote]

Faith is active by good works - this is justification, not salvation. Salvation is when we get to Heaven.

[quote]No manner of good works "merits" our initial entrance into the covenant. Works are a part of faith (obedience) after salvation.[/quote]

No one has said good works merits our inital entrance into the covenant. Works are not part of faith, read James. According to Christ we are not saved until the end.

[quote]We simply must remain in a covenant relationship with Christ in order to enter heaven.[/quote]

That falls under works, which falls under justification.


[b]Please explain to us how your definition fits all bible verses covering the topic. [/b]Works are not a part of faith "after salvation" - We are not saved until we are in Heaven because we can still fall. Once in Heaven we then are saved. Jesus is our salvation, until we are with Him we are working towards it.



God Bless,
ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Mar 18 2004, 10:51 AM'] bro adam, can u clarify what u mean by "no room for this faith to die off"? right now, i see that as a possibly questionable statement, but i may be assigning to it a definition other then the one u meant for it.

pax christi,
phatcatholic [/quote]
As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith.

[Brother Adam]

Thank you Carson.

[quote]Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics also do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.[/quote]

THANK YOU James Akin! This article is what I've been trying to articulate, but miserably so.

[quote]However, if the term "faith" is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.[/quote]

Edited March 18, 2004 by Brother Adam

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:44 AM'] As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith. [/quote]
oh, well in that case AMEN!

i thought u were saying w/ that statement that justification can't be lost once it is obtained. do u beleive that we can lose our initial justification?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 01:44 PM'] As James says, faith without works is dead. Faith must be an obedient faith. [/quote]
You just affirmed that works are necessary.

No one is saying that we work our way to salvation.

Salvation and Justification: there is a difference:

Please read some of these articles:
[url="http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/salvation.asp"]http://www.catholic-pages.com/dir/salvation.asp[/url]

By saying "obedient faith" includes works you are saying that works are necessary. If works are necessary then faith alone fails.

The fundies had to redefine "faith" to get around the facts that faith and works are necessary. The fundie definition of "faith" is the Catholic definition of "Faith and Works".


God Bless,
ironmonk

P.S.: Obedience is a work. Anything that we "do" is a work. We don't have works, we have faith. We do works.

Edited March 18, 2004 by ironmonk

[Brother Adam]

That's something I'm starting to wave on in light of covenant theology. As a Lutheran I did not accept OSAS, and reluctantly accepted it as a Baptist.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:52 AM'] You just affirmed that works are necessary. [/quote]
That's the problem Ironmonk, you see me as a anti-Catholic fundie to be attacked head on. That is how your posts come across. I'm way beyond that. The types of posts phatcatholic is giving are what I need to understand right now.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam

[Aloysius]

say someone gives you a free gift of a puppy. now, if you do not feed the puppy it will die. does that mean that the one that gave the puppy to you has asked that you earn the puppy? by no means! the puppy is a free gift, but you must nurture it, give it food and water, or it will die and you won't get to play with it anymore.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:54 AM'] That's something I'm starting to wave on in light of covenant theology. As a Lutheran I did not accept OSAS, and reluctantly accepted it as a Baptist. [/quote]
ok, well then it appears as though we are in agreement. is there a debate here? let me know if there are still doctrines pertaining to this issue that you don't understand or with which you do not agree.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

It's something that is just "unsure" for me. I don't know. The point to my thread is to understand how one is "saved" to use a protestant term.

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]say someone gives you a free gift of a puppy. now, if you do not feed the puppy it will die. does that mean that the one that gave the puppy to you has asked that you earn the puppy? by no means! the puppy is a free gift, but you must nurture it, give it food and water, or it will die and you won't get to play with it anymore. [/quote]

Thats Good!
It all leads back to the Holy Eucharist "The Source and Life of the Church" That is were we are nourished, graces restored, vices removed or calmed. It gives us life, you want to worry about faith, obedience, works, go to Christ in the Eucharist. You want life, go to Him, "Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life within you" He summed it up in one sentence, He wants us to come to Him, to "Abide in Him"

God Bless You

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 18 2004, 11:18 AM'] Faith is a pure gift from God period.... At baptism it is sealed (We become sons in the Son) and at conformation it is set a blaze. Faith is there for everyone, but you have to accept it!!




[/quote]
so as if I were an unbeliever, and came to believe in God, and came to be saved by Christ...

when did I receive my faith from God?

before I got saved?

when I started believing?

when I got saved?

if I got it when I got saved, what would make me believe to begin with?

if I don't believe in God and what He can do, I would have never been saved...right?

so when do we get faith...and when is it of God?

and brother adam and phatcatholic...MAD props on the posts fellas.

word.

love.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 18 2004, 01:56 PM'] That's the problem Ironmonk, you see me as a anti-Catholic fundie to be attacked head on. That is how your posts come across. I'm way beyond that. The types of posts phatcatholic is giving are what I need to understand right now.

God Bless,
Bro. Adam [/quote]
No I don't see you that way. Maybe you see me as coming head on because you don't have an answer to my questions. If you do, please answer them. Please don't read more into the post than what it says.

If the Catholic Church didn't have an answer to something, I wouldn't be Catholic. I would change my view so that I can have all the answers. The fundie POV leaves far to many unanswered questions... how can we know the Truth without answers when things appear to contradict. If things contradict in the bible - is there no God or is that POV wrong?

I simply do not understand how your pov adds up. If I'm wrong show me so that I can correct my view.

Please re-read my posts objectively instead of thinking of it as head on. This is totally the way you are reading into it.



Maybe the statement "take a deep breath" by someone else gave you the wrong impression. There was nothing to take a deep breath on.

You made statements, I wanted to understand them, so I asked questions because things don't appear to add up. When we get defensive over something because we can't answer it that should be a sign. Instead of getting all worked up over simply try to answer the questions... questions are suppose to make you think.

If someone asked me questions about the Catholic Church teaching not adding up I would want to know the answer and would answer them.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Livin_the_MASS]

John 3:5

[quote]Jesus answered, "Amen amen, I say to you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit"[/quote]

The CCC goes into the further like the desire of baptism things like that. But if the Truth has been revealed to you and you know that you have to be baptized you have to do it. Now if someone is in a sudden accident and was wanting to be baptized that is called "Desire of baptism" the person wasn't denying the Truth it just happened a bad inncodent happened and took their life.

[quote]so as if I were an unbeliever, and came to believe in God, and came to be saved by Christ...

when did I receive my faith from God?[/quote]


As soon as you are concieved in the womb. We are all made in the image and likeness of God. [b]We have the choice of what to do with it![/b]

God Bless
Hope this helps

[Brother Adam]

Hey Lumberjack!

Question: What do you understand about "covenant theology"? It's a term I keep running into. What I have read about it so far, it perfectly harmonizes scriptures. "Problem passages" or "difficult passages" are no longer problems.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Brother Adam,
Do you believe Christ is Truly Present in The Holy Eucharist?

[Brother Adam]

No.

[Livin_the_MASS]

Well Our Catholic Faith is [b]CENTERED[/b] on this [b]TRUTH[/b]! Your answers are contained in the Bread of Life. (Jn 6).

[the lumberjack]

whats up brother...adam

what about covenant theology?

everything I've read and heard harmonizes with the word as well...

is there any specific thing you wanted to point out?

[quote]Brother Adam Posted on Mar 18 2004, 12:37 PM
  No.[/quote]

and yet again...short, concise, and on point.

but I'm SURE we'll get into that later.

[Aloysius]

[i]St. Matthew 26:26-28; St. Mark 14:22-24; St. Luke 22:19-20; St. John 6; St. Paul> 1 Corinthians 11:24-26 [/i]

hehehehe.... i assume you already know those though