Pope Looks To Reintergrate Sspx Tommorrow

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772986' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:05 AM']Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?[/quote]
The following was said by the Melkite Catholic Patriarch at the Synod of Bishops in Rome back in Sept / Oct 2001:

[size=3][b]H.B. Grégoire III LAHAM, B.S., Patriarch of Antioch for the Greek-Melchites, Syria[/b]

It is incorrect to include the Patriarchal Synod under the title of Episcopal Conferences. It is a completely distinct organism. The Patriarchal Synod is the supreme instance of the Eastern Church. It can legislate, elect bishops and Patriarchs, cut off those who differ.

In No. 75, a "particular honor" given to Patriarchs is mentioned. I would like to mention that this diminishes the traditional role of the Patriarch, as well as speaking about the honor and privileges of the Patriarchs in ecclesiastical documents.

It is not a question of honor, of privileges, of concessions. The patriarchal institution is a specific entity unique in Eastern ecclesiology.

[b]With all respect due to the Petrine ministry, [i]the Patriarchal ministry is equal to it[/i], "servatis servandis", in Eastern ecclesiology.[/b]

Until this is taken into consideration by the Roman ecclesiology, no progress will be made in ecumenical dialogue.

[b]Furthermore, the Patriarchal ministry is not a Roman creation, it is not the fruit of privileges, conceded or granted by Rome.[/b]

Such a concept can but ruin any possible understanding with Orthodoxy.

We claim this also for our Patriarchal Melkite Church and for all our Eastern Catholic Churches.

We have waited too long to apply the decrees of Vatican Council II and the Encyclicals and letters by the Popes, and notably by Pope John Paul II.

Because of this the good will of the Church of Rome loses credibility regarding ecumenical dialogue.

We can see the opposite occurring: the CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradition and ecclesiology![/size]

[00119-02.03] [in096] [Original text: French]


Taken from the Vatican website: [url="http://www.vatican.va/news_services/press/sinodo/documents/bollettino_20_x-ordinaria-2001/02_inglese/b10_02.html"]The Holy See Press Office: SYNODUS EPISCOPORUM BULLETIN[/url]

[Aloysius]

off topic a bit, but, the Eastern Churches are called "sui juris" for a reason: they are (at least meant to be) totally self-governing. Following roughlly the model of the first millenium, the Pope is to be simply an ultimate guarantee for unity, the final appeal when an issue cannot be resolved by the individual Church. ie, the Pope does not micro manage the Eastern Churches and in ordinary circumstances is not even to be directly involved in them; he is to be the first amoung equals (the other patriarchs who are within their own Churches equal in position and power to the pope as the pope is within his own Church) and the place of ultimate appeal to guarantee unity in extra-ordinary circumstances

pretty much all the Churches are complete in and of themselves with their own "pope"-- their patriarch, and run smoothly. the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome, however, consider Rome to be the ultimate mediator when something cannot be resolved otherwise. Thus Peter guarantees unity without really being "in charge" of the other patriarchs.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772927' date='Feb 5 2009, 08:41 AM']It is clear that the Pope wants Williamson to publicly recant.[/quote]
What the pope wants and what he has the authority to require in this case are two different things. That said, I think that Bishop Williamson probably will recant, but should he recant his position on a matter of general history? No! He should tell the pope that it is none of his business, because his (Bishop Williamson's) views do not touch upon the dogmatic teaching of the Church.

The pope has no special charismatic authority when it comes to matters of general human history.

Edited February 6, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1773657' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:38 PM']off topic a bit, but, the Eastern Churches are called "sui juris" for a reason: they are (at least meant to be) totally self-governing. Following roughlly the model of the first millenium, the Pope is to be simply an ultimate guarantee for unity, the final appeal when an issue cannot be resolved by the individual Church. ie, the Pope does not micro manage the Eastern Churches and in ordinary circumstances is not even to be directly involved in them; he is to be the first amoung equals (the other patriarchs who are within their own Churches equal in position and power to the pope as the pope is within his own Church) and the place of ultimate appeal to guarantee unity in extra-ordinary circumstances (Apo, please correct me if I'm wrong here)[/quote]
Al,

I agree with your post, and think it summarizes -- in a very general way -- the Eastern Catholic position.

God grant you many happy years,
Todd

[Apotheoun]

Please forgive my typographical error in post number 165. The end of the second sentence should read: ". . . [b]to[/b] name just two terrible historical events -- are horrible crimes against humanity."

[jkaands]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772930' date='Feb 5 2009, 09:51 AM']Trouble is you got it wrong. Appy is NOT equivocating at all on the Holocaust, he is simply pointing out the problems with the telling someone to recant over a point of HISTORY.
I can see his point, and I'm sorry you can't quite seem to get it.[/quote]

I get it, Cmother.

Apotheoun does not.

This today from the[b] New York Times:[/b] (emphasis mine)

"In later statements, the Vatican has said that the society (SSPX) must accept the teachings of Vatican II before it can be brought in full communion with the church.

Earlier this week, [b]Bishop Williamson was expelled by Argentina, [/b]where he directed a seminary, and traveled to Britain.

On Wednesday, the Catholic Bishops Conference of England and Wales said in a statement that [b]Bishop Williamson “is not and never has been a Roman Catholic Bishop, despite media reports to the contrary. He is not able to celebrate any sacraments in a Catholic Church, including Mass, nor is he able to preach.”[/b]

It noted that the Society of St. Pius X was not in full communion with the Catholic Church and added that:[b] “Furthermore the Catholic Church has condemned his stated views on the holocaust. Those views are not only offensive and unacceptable, but they have no place in the Church and run contrary to Catholic teaching.”[/b]In later statements, the Vatican has said that the society must accept the teachings of Vatican II before it can be brought in full communion with the church."

Thus, to deny the Holocaust, as Williamson has done, is[b] to run contrary to Catholic teaching.[/b]

Period.

These beliefs are the obligation of every professing Catholic and Eastern Catholic. The patriarchs in the Eastern branches answer to the Pope, and if they are to be considered full members of the Roman Catholic church (which Williamson is not), they must believe all Catholic teachings, which include the historic validity of the Holocaust>

Period.

[Aloysius]

That is absolutely incorrect and shows a false understanding of the teaching authority of the Church. The Church IS NOT A HISTORY TEACHER. No matter how many bishops or popes of the Church condemn a specific historical position, that position is not considered contrary to the FAITH. The validity of the holocaust is not a Catholic teaching, and anyone who thinks it is has fallen into a heresy about what the nature of the Church's teaching authority is.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1792029' date='Feb 26 2009, 03:00 PM']These beliefs are the obligation of every professing Catholic and Eastern Catholic. The patriarchs in the Eastern branches answer to the Pope, and if they are to be considered full members of the Roman Catholic church (which Williamson is not), they must believe all Catholic teachings, which include the historic validity of the Holocaust>

Period.[/quote]
As far as Eastern Catholic ecclesiology is concerned, you do not know what you are talking about.

Patriarchs are the Pope's equals in Eastern ecclesiology. Moreover Rome is not the only historic petrine see.

Finally, the holocaust is not a matter of dogma and so the Pope has no authority whatsoever to compel anyone to hold a specific position on that historical event.

[doe-jo]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1792040' date='Feb 26 2009, 03:27 PM']That is absolutely incorrect and shows a false understanding of the teaching authority of the Church. The Church IS NOT A HISTORY TEACHER. No matter how many bishops or popes of the Church condemn a specific historical position, that position is not considered contrary to the FAITH. The validity of the holocaust is not a Catholic teaching, and anyone who thinks it is has fallen into a heresy about what the nature of the Church's teaching authority is.[/quote]
Werd.