Pope Looks To Reintergrate Sspx Tommorrow

[Apotheoun]

In the Eastern Christian tradition religious "habits", which all look pretty much the same, are a mystery (i.e., a sacrament) that visibly manifests the person's (male or female) consecration to God. Sadly, much of the Western Church seems to have lost touch with this tradition.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Apotheoun

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772477' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:19 PM']Bishop Williamson will probably cave in, but he shouldn't.[/quote]

He SHOULDN'T???

Ex-cuuuuse me??!!

A bishop who PUBLICLY denies the Holocaust AND 9/11??

AND who's gotten the pope in a whole lot of trouble?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772501' date='Feb 4 2009, 08:44 PM']He SHOULDN'T???

Ex-cuuuuse me??!!

A bishop who PUBLICLY denies the Holocaust AND 9/11??

AND who's gotten the pope in a whole lot of trouble?[/quote]
I may think that Bishop Williamson's views on historical matters are foolish, but the Vatican has no power to require him, nor anyone else for that matter, to believe in certain historical events, or to believe in a particular interpretation of any given historical event.

[Apotheoun]

Do I accept the American interpretation of the events surrounding Pearl Harbor, yes, but I do not believe in it as an act of divine and catholic faith.

Will a Japanese Catholic who believes that his country was defending its interests by attacking the United States on December 7th, and that the attack in question was provoked by American embargoes on vital raw materials, go to hell for believing that? No. Because that belief is not a dogmatic truth.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772497' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:38 PM']How interesting, I notice that feminists tend to get most worked up over this issue.[/quote]

I have nothing against the habit. I do think that it is not essential to be identified as a sister in a shopping mall or the airport, rather than in their line of duty. The leader of the Apostles of the Sacred Heart--modified habit--who is conducting the Visitation, has clearly stated that her, ie. the pope's, investigation is not about wearing the habit, but about reviving the apostolic congregations. Although many feel that resumption of the habit is a magic solution, a review of habited congregations show that only a small minority of these are actually growing, or, actually, holding their own. Most are small. Once again, do a thorough and systematic survey of websites and the Guide.

By the way, to get back on track, you might not mind insulting 50 senators who complained to the Pope about Bp. Williamson, but what about Francis Cardinal George, Cardinal of the Archdiocese of Chicago and spokesman for the US Cardinals? It's harder to ignore[i] him.[/i]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090203/pl_usnw/president_of_u_s__bishops_says_holocaust_denial__deeply_offensive_and_utterly_false"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090203/pl_u...d_utterly_false[/url]

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772504' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:50 PM']I may think that Bishop Williamson's views on historical matters are foolish, but the Vatican has no power to require him, nor anyone else for that matter, to believe in certain historical events, or to believe in a particular interpretation of any given historical event.[/quote]

The Pope does have the power to insist that Williamson keep his mouth shut.

Edited February 5, 2009 by jkaands

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772529' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:10 PM']The Pope does have the power to insist that he keep his mouth shut.[/quote]
Maybe in the Latin Church.

Now the dilemma for Bishop Williamson is that his SSPX superior has told him not to speak on historical topics, and the Vatican is asking him to do just that. I suppose the Vatican needs to talk to Bishop Fellay first next time.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772527' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:09 PM']By the way, to get back on track, you might not mind insulting 50 senators who complained to the Pope about Bp. Williamson, but what about Francis Cardinal George, Cardinal of the Archdiocese of Chicago and spokesman for the US Cardinals? It's harder to ignore[i] him.[/i]

[url="http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090203/pl_usnw/president_of_u_s__bishops_says_holocaust_denial__deeply_offensive_and_utterly_false"]http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/20090203/pl_u...d_utterly_false[/url][/quote]
I'm not all that interested in what 50 U.S. Senators think, and Cardinal George is not my bishop, so his views have little impact on my religious life.

Certainly the good Cardinal has a right to his opinions on historical matters unrelated to the faith, but so do I, and so does Bishop Williamson.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Apotheoun

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772537' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:14 PM']I'm not all that interested in what 50 U.S. Senators think, and Cardinal George is not my bishop, so his views have little impact on my religious life.

Certainly the good Cardinal has a right to his opinions on historical matters unrelated to the faith, but so do I, and so does Bishop Williamson.[/quote]

Francis Cardinal George is the President of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops; his Archdiocese is the largest in the United States, and as such, he is [i]the [/i]ranking prelate.

Loyal Catholics in the United States should[i] pay attention [/i]to what he says.

[ardillacid]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772548' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:22 PM']Francis Cardinal George is the President of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops; his Archdiocese is the largest in the United States, and as such, he is [i]the [/i]ranking prelate.[/quote]
If you are a Latin Catholic I suppose that that information is impressive, but I'm not a Latin Catholic.

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772548' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:22 PM']Loyal Catholics in the United States should[i] pay attention [/i]to what he says.[/quote]
I'm more interested in what the Melkite Catholic Patriarch has to say, and when he speaks I pay attention.

[Apotheoun]

Cardinal George has no canonical authority whatsoever over Eastern Catholics. We have our own hierarchs, our own theology, and our own liturgical and spiritual tradition.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772559' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:30 PM']Cardinal George has no canonical authority whatsoever over Eastern Catholics. We have our own hierarchs, our own theology, and our own liturgical and spiritual tradition.[/quote]

But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:07 PM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url][/quote]
I must obey my patriarch.

You might want to read some of the writings of Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby, because that would help you to better understand the relationship that Eastern Catholics have with the pope.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:07 PM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.[/quote]
A small addenda: even if I were a Latin Catholic I still would not believe that the pope has the authority to make a bishop (or any man for that matter) recant a particular historical viewpoint that is not related to the Christological and Triadological dogmas of the faith.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:07 AM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url][/quote]

I see nothing here on publicly recanting.
THe Zenit article says "The statement went on to reiterate the Pope's firm rejection of Bishop Williamson's opinion on the Shoah, stating that the prelate would have to "distance himself in an absolutely unmistakable and public way from his position" in order to be reinstated to episcopal service. "

[jkaands]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772661' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:19 PM']I see nothing here on publicly recanting.
THe Zenit article says "The statement went on to reiterate the Pope's firm "rejection of Bishop Williamson's opinion on the Shoah, stating that the prelate would have to[b] "distance himself in an absolutely unmistakable and public way"[/b] from his position in order to be reinstated to episcopal service. "[/quote]

(above emphasis mine)

I think that the above highlighted phrase is equivalent to a public recantation.

I don't like to take large quotes from articles, preferring to rely only on the link, but here's a direct quote of most of the article, which was taken from the [b]London Times,[/b] Britain's pre-eminent newspaper:

(emphasis mine)

"The Pope has ordered an ultra-conservative bishop from Britain to recant his denial that Jews died in gas chambers during the Holocaust.

In a move designed to head off condemnation, Pope Benedict XVI ordered Bishop Richard Williamson [b]to unequivocally and publicly renounce his claims that there were no gas chambers and that fewer than 300,000 Jews died in the Nazi death camps instead of the accepted figure of six million.[/b]

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and many politicians, prelates and faith leaders have rounded on the Pope after his decision to lift excommunications on Bishop Williamson, an Old Wykehamist and Cambridge graduate, and three other traditionalist bishops.

The Vatican said:[b] “Bishop Williamson, in order to be admitted to episcopal functions within the Church, will have to take his distance, in an absolutely unequivocal and public fashion, from his position on the Shoah, which the Holy Father was not aware of when the excommunication was lifted.”[/b]

The statement represented a volte-face by the Holy See, which had earlier claimed the matter was closed after the Pope denounced anti-Semitism in his weekly audience last week. He made no mention of it yesterday.

Bishop Williamson, a friend of David Irving, the controversial British historian who served a prison sentence in Austria for Holocaust denial, has apologised to the Pope for the anguish caused by his views. [b]But he has pointedly made no apology for those views, which include support for the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[/b] Nor has he or the Vatican apologised to the Jewish people for the offence caused.

The Vatican has consistently maintained that the Pope’s decision to lift the excommunications on the four bishops of the Society of Pope Pius X bears no relation to the personal views of Bishop Williamson. The excommunications were lifted because the Pope wants to rehabilitate the society, founded by the French traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, as part of his mission to restore unity to Christendom. The bishops were excommunicated automatically because Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated them without Papal permission.

A note issued by the Vatican’s Secretariat of State said that Bishop Williamson would not be in full communion with Rome and could not serve as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church unless he did as instructed. The statement said Pope Benedict had been unaware of Bishop Williamson’s denial of the Holocaust when the pontiff lifted the excommunications on him and other followers of the late Archbishop Lefebvre, who left the Church because he refused to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

The Pope and his advisers had failed to consult the prelate in charge of interfaith dialogue, Cardinal Walter Kasper, who would certainly have warned them of the furor that would be caused had he been given the chance.

Similarly, before the ill-advised Regensburg address (see box, above left), the Pope had moved Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald from his post in charge of Vatican relations with Islam and sent him as papal nuncio to Egypt. Archbishop Fitzgerald could have prevented that disaster. In Rome the Pope’s advisers and communications experts are coming increasingly under scrutiny at repeated failures to manage utterances in such sensitive areas.

Interfaith experts gave warning last night that the Vatican had still not gone far enough, as it rejected the demand from Mrs Merkel for the Pope to clarify the rehabilitations, saying that the Pope had already condemned Holocaust denial in unequivocal terms.

Father Federico Lombardi, the Papal spokesman, [b]said that the Pope’s condemnations on a number of occasions of statements denying the Holocaust “cannot have been expressed more clearly, and it is evident in this context that they referred to the position of Monsignor Williamson and all similar positions.”[/b]

Mrs Merkel said that the Pope should make it very clear that Holocaust denial was completely unacceptable. "

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url]

It is clear that the Pope wants Williamson to publicly recant.

It is also clear that the condemnation of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism is part and parcel of current Catholic doctrine--in the Latin church, anyway.

It is also clear that the Pope was blindsided by this, and is trying to make amends. The Pope is NOT infallible in all things all the time, and he wasn't on this. I predict that this incident will put back the reinstatement of SSPX many years, as who knows what the rest of them are like?

I also find Apotheoun's clear Holocaust equivocation, tantamount to denial, to be absolutely [b]disgusting[/b] and hope that other Eastern Catholics don't share his views. I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772927' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:41 AM']I also find Apotheoun's clear Holocaust equivocation, tantamount to denial, to be absolutely [b]disgusting[/b] and hope that other Eastern Catholics don't share his views. I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.[/quote]

Trouble is you got it wrong. Appy is NOT equivocating at all on the Holocaust, he is simply pointing out the problems with the telling someone to recant over a point of HISTORY.
I can see his point, and I'm sorry you can't quite seem to get it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772646' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:11 AM']I must obey my patriarch.

You might want to read some of the writings of Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby, because that would help you to better understand the relationship that Eastern Catholics have with the pope.[/quote]

Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772986' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:05 PM']Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?[/quote]
I think they see him more as a brother bishop, but please take it to the trans thread.