Pope Looks To Reintergrate Sspx Tommorrow

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772548' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:22 PM']Francis Cardinal George is the President of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops; his Archdiocese is the largest in the United States, and as such, he is [i]the [/i]ranking prelate.[/quote]
If you are a Latin Catholic I suppose that that information is impressive, but I'm not a Latin Catholic.

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772548' date='Feb 4 2009, 09:22 PM']Loyal Catholics in the United States should[i] pay attention [/i]to what he says.[/quote]
I'm more interested in what the Melkite Catholic Patriarch has to say, and when he speaks I pay attention.

[Apotheoun]

Cardinal George has no canonical authority whatsoever over Eastern Catholics. We have our own hierarchs, our own theology, and our own liturgical and spiritual tradition.

[jkaands]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772559' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:30 PM']Cardinal George has no canonical authority whatsoever over Eastern Catholics. We have our own hierarchs, our own theology, and our own liturgical and spiritual tradition.[/quote]

But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:07 PM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url][/quote]
I must obey my patriarch.

You might want to read some of the writings of Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby, because that would help you to better understand the relationship that Eastern Catholics have with the pope.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:07 PM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.[/quote]
A small addenda: even if I were a Latin Catholic I still would not believe that the pope has the authority to make a bishop (or any man for that matter) recant a particular historical viewpoint that is not related to the Christological and Triadological dogmas of the faith.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772636' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:07 AM']But all Eastern Catholics must obey the Pope. And the Pope has [i]commanded[/i] Williamson to publicly recant his denial of the Holocaust.

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url][/quote]

I see nothing here on publicly recanting.
THe Zenit article says "The statement went on to reiterate the Pope's firm rejection of Bishop Williamson's opinion on the Shoah, stating that the prelate would have to "distance himself in an absolutely unmistakable and public way from his position" in order to be reinstated to episcopal service. "

[jkaands]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1772661' date='Feb 4 2009, 11:19 PM']I see nothing here on publicly recanting.
THe Zenit article says "The statement went on to reiterate the Pope's firm "rejection of Bishop Williamson's opinion on the Shoah, stating that the prelate would have to[b] "distance himself in an absolutely unmistakable and public way"[/b] from his position in order to be reinstated to episcopal service. "[/quote]

(above emphasis mine)

I think that the above highlighted phrase is equivalent to a public recantation.

I don't like to take large quotes from articles, preferring to rely only on the link, but here's a direct quote of most of the article, which was taken from the [b]London Times,[/b] Britain's pre-eminent newspaper:

(emphasis mine)

"The Pope has ordered an ultra-conservative bishop from Britain to recant his denial that Jews died in gas chambers during the Holocaust.

In a move designed to head off condemnation, Pope Benedict XVI ordered Bishop Richard Williamson [b]to unequivocally and publicly renounce his claims that there were no gas chambers and that fewer than 300,000 Jews died in the Nazi death camps instead of the accepted figure of six million.[/b]

The German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and many politicians, prelates and faith leaders have rounded on the Pope after his decision to lift excommunications on Bishop Williamson, an Old Wykehamist and Cambridge graduate, and three other traditionalist bishops.

The Vatican said:[b] “Bishop Williamson, in order to be admitted to episcopal functions within the Church, will have to take his distance, in an absolutely unequivocal and public fashion, from his position on the Shoah, which the Holy Father was not aware of when the excommunication was lifted.”[/b]

The statement represented a volte-face by the Holy See, which had earlier claimed the matter was closed after the Pope denounced anti-Semitism in his weekly audience last week. He made no mention of it yesterday.

Bishop Williamson, a friend of David Irving, the controversial British historian who served a prison sentence in Austria for Holocaust denial, has apologised to the Pope for the anguish caused by his views. [b]But he has pointedly made no apology for those views, which include support for the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[/b] Nor has he or the Vatican apologised to the Jewish people for the offence caused.

The Vatican has consistently maintained that the Pope’s decision to lift the excommunications on the four bishops of the Society of Pope Pius X bears no relation to the personal views of Bishop Williamson. The excommunications were lifted because the Pope wants to rehabilitate the society, founded by the French traditionalist Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, as part of his mission to restore unity to Christendom. The bishops were excommunicated automatically because Archbishop Lefebvre consecrated them without Papal permission.

A note issued by the Vatican’s Secretariat of State said that Bishop Williamson would not be in full communion with Rome and could not serve as a bishop in the Roman Catholic Church unless he did as instructed. The statement said Pope Benedict had been unaware of Bishop Williamson’s denial of the Holocaust when the pontiff lifted the excommunications on him and other followers of the late Archbishop Lefebvre, who left the Church because he refused to accept the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

The Pope and his advisers had failed to consult the prelate in charge of interfaith dialogue, Cardinal Walter Kasper, who would certainly have warned them of the furor that would be caused had he been given the chance.

Similarly, before the ill-advised Regensburg address (see box, above left), the Pope had moved Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald from his post in charge of Vatican relations with Islam and sent him as papal nuncio to Egypt. Archbishop Fitzgerald could have prevented that disaster. In Rome the Pope’s advisers and communications experts are coming increasingly under scrutiny at repeated failures to manage utterances in such sensitive areas.

Interfaith experts gave warning last night that the Vatican had still not gone far enough, as it rejected the demand from Mrs Merkel for the Pope to clarify the rehabilitations, saying that the Pope had already condemned Holocaust denial in unequivocal terms.

Father Federico Lombardi, the Papal spokesman, [b]said that the Pope’s condemnations on a number of occasions of statements denying the Holocaust “cannot have been expressed more clearly, and it is evident in this context that they referred to the position of Monsignor Williamson and all similar positions.”[/b]

Mrs Merkel said that the Pope should make it very clear that Holocaust denial was completely unacceptable. "

[url="http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article5663726.ece"]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/f...icle5663726.ece[/url]

It is clear that the Pope wants Williamson to publicly recant.

It is also clear that the condemnation of the Holocaust and anti-Semitism is part and parcel of current Catholic doctrine--in the Latin church, anyway.

It is also clear that the Pope was blindsided by this, and is trying to make amends. The Pope is NOT infallible in all things all the time, and he wasn't on this. I predict that this incident will put back the reinstatement of SSPX many years, as who knows what the rest of them are like?

I also find Apotheoun's clear Holocaust equivocation, tantamount to denial, to be absolutely [b]disgusting[/b] and hope that other Eastern Catholics don't share his views. I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772927' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:41 AM']I also find Apotheoun's clear Holocaust equivocation, tantamount to denial, to be absolutely [b]disgusting[/b] and hope that other Eastern Catholics don't share his views. I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.[/quote]

Trouble is you got it wrong. Appy is NOT equivocating at all on the Holocaust, he is simply pointing out the problems with the telling someone to recant over a point of HISTORY.
I can see his point, and I'm sorry you can't quite seem to get it.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1772646' date='Feb 5 2009, 12:11 AM']I must obey my patriarch.

You might want to read some of the writings of Melkite Catholic Archbishop Elias Zoghby, because that would help you to better understand the relationship that Eastern Catholics have with the pope.[/quote]

Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772986' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:05 PM']Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?[/quote]
I think they see him more as a brother bishop, but please take it to the trans thread.

[Tinkerlina]

[i]
I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.[/i]

Thanks Thanks for sharing your input too. I would add that I don't think Catholic [i]doctrine[/i] is Anti-Semitic, although being Catholic hasn't always prevented people, like Bishop Williamson, from committing the sin of anti-semitism and, well, stupidididity. I think John Paul II made great strides in repairing fragile Jewish/Catholic relationships, acknowledged wrongdoing by Catholics throughout history, apologized for it etc, and I hope we don't lose that because of some crackpot.- Katie

Edited February 5, 2009 by Tinkerlina

[Formosus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772986' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:05 PM']Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?[/quote]


The leaders of Eastern Churches are the highest ecclesiastic authority within our churches. The Pope only interferes in certain circumstances (generally when appealed to as an arbiter over a dispute such as the recent upholding of excomunication against several schismatic Ukrainian bishops, and a separate case of Fr. Kopak of the SSJK). For instance, in this situation is a matter of discipline among latin clergy, but as others have said above it is a misguided attempt at discipline. The Pope's role within the Eastern churches is much different then his role among his own sui iuris church.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Tinkerlina' post='1773002' date='Feb 5 2009, 01:14 PM']I would add that I don't think Catholic [i]doctrine[/i] is Anti-Semitic, although being Catholic hasn't always prevented people, like Bishop Williamson, from committing the sin of anti-semitism and, well, stupidididity. I think John Paul II made great strides in repairing fragile Jewish/Catholic relationships, acknowledged wrongdoing by Catholics throughout history, apologized for it etc, and I hope we don't lose that because of some crackpot.- Katie[/quote]
Allow me to point out that stupidity is not a sin.
And, quite frankly, I couldn't care much less [i]what[/i] other religions think of us. Is it good if Catholic-Jewish relations are good? Yes. Is it [i]bad[/i] if they're not? I don't see why it would be. We're here to spread the truth, not make friends.
And I don't think that it's appropriate to call a bishop a "crackpot".

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1772986' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:05 AM']Sorry to veer off topic, but...the patriarch is more authoritative than the Pope for Eastern Catholics?[/quote]
To be honest, yes; because from an Eastern Catholic perspective the pope's authority is not the ordinary means for governing the universal Church, while the patriarch's authority -- within his patriarchate -- is ordinary. To understand the Eastern Catholic position better you will need to read the writings of Archbishop Zoghby, and the 1996 decree of the Melkite Holy Synod on the authority of the pope in the Eastern tradition.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='jkaands' post='1772927' date='Feb 5 2009, 08:41 AM']I also find Apotheoun's clear Holocaust equivocation, tantamount to denial, to be absolutely [b]disgusting[/b] and hope that other Eastern Catholics don't share his views. I am very grateful to HisChild, Tink and (usually) cmother for opposing him and supporting the views of the Latin Church and the Pope on this vital issue.[/quote]
It is not equivocation at all. The murder of six million Jews and twelve million other people in the Nazi concentration camps, and the murder of nearly two million Armenians by the Turks at the beginning of the 20th century -- two name just two terrible historical events -- are horrible crimes against humanity. Nevertheless, these terrible historical events, and many others, are not dogmatic matters open to a definitive decree of the Magisterium. In other words, the authority of the Magisterium is limited to matters of revealed dogma and those things that are historically or logically connected to the protection of dogma, and the events surrounding World War II and the Armenian genocide (to name just two things) are not a part of divine revelation, nor can they ever be a part of divine revelation, and so the Magisterium cannot require a Catholic to hold a specific position on either of those two events, or any other event unrelated to revealed dogma for that matter (e.g., the attack on Pearl Harbor, the attack on the World Trade Center, the horrible crimes committed against Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics, etc.). The Magisterium cannot require a Catholic to hold a particular viewpoint on matters of general history, and that the Vatican is trying to do just that in the present case really makes the Vatican look foolish.