Selah Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) I was thinking about this today. We are all born with the stain of original sin, correct? It's in human nature to sin, right? If this is so, why would God punish us for something that we are born with? Why didn't he have all of humankind born without the stain, just like the Blessed Virgin? Does that make any sense? I'm not quite sure how to word it Pax! Selah Edited February 4, 2009 by Selah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 (edited) I've read something somewhere about how we are all kind of "one flesh with Adam" or something like that. As in Adam's sin "IS" our sin in terms of guilt by our natural generation from Adam. There is no disconnect between Adam and us in terms of guilt because of this shared reality. My understanding is that there is no 'separate guilt' that we have that is different than Adam's guilt with regard to original sin (feel free to correct my phrasing or to instruct my ignorance anyone). Sharing the fallen nature of Adam is the way it works; Mary's Immaculate Conception is an exception to the rule. Could God make the exception 'the rule'? Of course, but in his providence apparently he's decided not to. That's my 2cents. Now I'll hand it off to people far more intelligent and qualified... Edited February 4, 2009 by Veridicus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formosus Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 To sin is not in our nature, but rather is a disease that by the actions of our ancestors, we have inherited. Through Baptism, we are set free of this disease and thus enabling us (with God's help) to overcome the remaining effects of this disease. The Blessed Virgin's immaculate conception (to use a latin view) is only free of this disease in that she received a sort of baptism at conception (that still required Christ's sacrifice). So even in a latin view (IMO) the Theotokos still could have sinned and still suffered temptations to sin just as we all do, but her great faith in Christ our God helped her to overcome the temptations and to be a model for all us on earth to imitate. *BTW* I love the maronite church, I used to go to one often back in my hometown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I really like a couple of Formosus' points. These are questions close to my heart, since I have often thought about them and sought answers to them throughout life. They are intellectually honest. So I'd like to give them the royal treatment, and share some of my partial answers to these questions, partial since some of them are rooted in mystery. But I dont have time right now to type it up, so maybe this weekend I will work on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 [quote name='Formosus' post='1772412' date='Feb 4 2009, 10:21 PM']To sin is not in our nature, but rather is a disease that by the actions of our ancestors, we have inherited. Through Baptism, we are set free of this disease and thus enabling us (with God's help) to overcome the remaining effects of this disease. The Blessed Virgin's immaculate conception (to use a latin view) is only free of this disease in that she received a sort of baptism at conception (that still required Christ's sacrifice). So even in a latin view (IMO) the Theotokos still could have sinned and still suffered temptations to sin just as we all do, but her great faith in Christ our God helped her to overcome the temptations and to be a model for all us on earth to imitate. *BTW* I love the maronite church, I used to go to one often back in my hometown.[/quote] I always love listening to Eastern theology keep talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773064' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:10 AM']I always love listening to Eastern theology keep talking.[/quote] So do I. I agree that sin is not in our nature, and in fact sinful actions are unnatural. Ultimately, to hold that sin is in our nature, or that human nature after the fall is sinful, is problematic anthropologically and Christologically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Selah Posted February 6, 2009 Author Share Posted February 6, 2009 Ah, I see. I had always thought it was part of us. But as I think about, it's actually unnatural. We were created sinless, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1773362' date='Feb 5 2009, 10:01 PM']So do I. I agree that sin is not in our nature, and in fact sinful actions are unnatural. Ultimately, to hold that sin is in our nature, or that human nature after the fall is sinful, is problematic anthropologically and Christologically.[/quote] Is this not a major difference between eastern and western theology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1773537' date='Feb 5 2009, 11:24 PM']Is this not a major difference between eastern and western theology?[/quote] no. Or at least it shouldnt be. Are you referring to the neo-scholastics view of pure nature, or perhaps something else? Just curious, to know before I type some of my answer up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 (edited) I think she's referring to the Eastern Orthodox not believing in original sin. I'm not sure about Eastern Catholics... Edited February 6, 2009 by LouisvilleFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 6, 2009 Share Posted February 6, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1774033' date='Feb 6 2009, 04:23 PM']I think she's referring to the Eastern Orthodox not believing in original sin. I'm not sure about Eastern Catholics...[/quote] There are major differences between eastern and western catholic theology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 7, 2009 Share Posted February 7, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1774134' date='Feb 6 2009, 05:19 PM']There are major differences between eastern and western catholic theology.[/quote] which is my an over-emphasis should not be placed in either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1774134' date='Feb 6 2009, 06:19 PM']There are major differences between eastern and western catholic theology.[/quote] What differences? Eastern Catholics must affirm dogmas like original sin and the Immaculate Conception to be in full communion with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veridicus Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1775969' date='Feb 8 2009, 04:07 PM']What differences? Eastern Catholics must affirm dogmas like original sin and the Immaculate Conception to be in full communion with us.[/quote] Patiently awaiting any needed clarification from Apo.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 8, 2009 Share Posted February 8, 2009 Click the link below to read about the Eastern understanding of the original sin: [url="http://www.geocities.com/apotheoun/original_sin"][u]Original Sin in the Byzantine Tradition[/u][/url] by Fr. John Meyendorff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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