Bishop Who Denied Holocaust Ousted

[Church Punk]

Ok so if you claim 200 000 people died you completely deny the holocaust and you are anti-semetic but if you believe 300 000 people died it is the holocaust...hmmm OK, stupid logic.

They will attack and provoke everyone who holds Catholic tradition the same way as they always call the Pope a nazi, and the uproar over his Regensburg address. If it wasnt for this anti catholic media, the Bishop would still have his job.

Facta non verba

I see so much of a big deal being made over talk or what people believe to be what someone else thinks or ideas they hold. A total distortion to distroy their opponent in the media.

Im not a supporter of the SSPX but, show me some action, what has this man done? ...Helped preserve the tradition of the Catholic Church, shepherd to wayward faithful who have had their faith shattered by liberal or malignant bishops. Im sure this man has done much good work. Why would the Pope accept him back into full communion if he didnt.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Church Punk' post='1776993' date='Feb 9 2009, 05:39 PM']Ok so if you claim 200 000 people died you completely deny the holocaust and you are anti-semetic but if you believe 300 000 people died it is the holocaust...hmmm OK, stupid logic.[/quote]

No, he claimed that 200,000 to 300,000 people died. Most people think it was a lot more.

[lilac_angel]

The Holocaust began with Hitler's rise to power in January of 1933 and ended on VE Day (May 8, 1945). During this time, [b]more than 6 million Jews[/b] were killed and millions of other groups caught the negative attention of Nazi Germany. While all the murders were devastating to native populations, none were so devastating than that of the Jews.

During this period, 5,000 Jewish communities were wiped out and the total that died represented 1/3 of all Jewish people alive at that time.

[url="http://ezinearticles.com/?Facts-about-the-Holocaust&id=349397"]http://ezinearticles.com/?Facts-about-the-...t&id=349397[/url]

Other groups were also persecuted and killed, including the Roma; Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war; ethnic Poles; the disabled; homosexual men; and political and religious opponents.[3] Most scholars, however, define the Holocaust as a genocide of European Jewry alone,[4] or what the Nazis called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question." [b]The total number of victims of Nazi genocidal policies, including the handicapped and Gypsies is generally agreed to be between nine and 11 million.[/b][5]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust[/url]

Edited February 9, 2009 by lilac_angel

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='T-Bone _' post='1776963' date='Feb 9 2009, 05:06 PM']You obviously need to read more [s]insane rants[/s] tracts by Jack Chick.

Really, though, I wholeheartedly agree with the two of you.

I haven't been following the Bishop's antics though, were these public statements that he made, or merely private statements made public?[/quote]

I'm not sure; I'll have to read more about it. But he didn't recant any of his opinions.. though it is good that he claimed he will be doing more research.

Maybe he will eventually be reinstated, God willing.

Edited February 9, 2009 by lilac_angel

[Apotheoun]

Evidently for some people the holocaust is a new article of the Catholic faith. Truly sad.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777052' date='Feb 9 2009, 06:22 PM']Evidently for some people the holocaust is a new article of the Catholic faith. Truly sad.[/quote]

Are you talking about the seminary that didn't want him as a leader anymore because he in no way represented the congregation's views, or the person on this thread that wasn't aware of the numbers (doesn't seem like it, but just making sure)? I myself am terrible at remembering numbers of any kind, but I knew it was around that amount.

Edited February 9, 2009 by lilac_angel

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1777074' date='Feb 9 2009, 03:30 PM']Are you talking about the seminary that didn't want him as a leader anymore because he in no way represented the congregation's views, or the person on this thread that wasn't aware of the numbers? I myself am terrible at remembering numbers of any kind, but I knew it was around that amount.[/quote]
I am talking about anyone who thinks that his views on the holocaust have any importance in connection with his being a bishop or a Catholic.

Catholics can be in error on any number of events from general history and still be Catholics in good standing.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777080' date='Feb 9 2009, 06:32 PM']I am talking about anyone who thinks that his views on the holocaust have any importance in connection with his being a bishop or a Catholic.

Catholics can be in error on any number of events from general history and still be Catholics in good standing.[/quote]

The only people I've come across who were Holocaust deniers or anti-Semitics went to white supremacy websites for their religious information, were a little too heavily into conspiracy theories, or thought they themselves were the Pope. Prudence can sometimes be a good thing, and it's not as if he was ousted from his Bishop position.

Edited February 9, 2009 by lilac_angel

[Apotheoun]

Witch hunts are bad in general.

The fact that Bishop Williamson disagrees with the estimated number of people killed in the camps is not really all that important, since different figures are given by different sources, and none of the sources are all that reliable. I've read things that say that 18 million people died in Nazi concentration camps, while other texts claim that only 11 million people died, and some put it at 9 million. Some texts state that 5.5 million Poles were killed, and that 3 million of them were Jews, which means that 2.5 million non-Jewish Poles were killed. Most of these statistics are "educated" guesses of historians, who do not agree on the actual number of people killed. The same kind of statistical guessing goes on in connection with the Turkish genocide of the Armenians (figures range from 750,000 to 3,000,000).

That said, a man's views on the holocaust are irrelevant when it comes to his standing in the Catholic Church, and that is true whether one is talking about the Church in general or a particular seminary or other institution.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Apotheoun

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777096' date='Feb 9 2009, 06:48 PM']Witch hunts are bad in general.

The fact that Bishop Williamson disagrees with the estimated number of people killed in the camps is not really all that important, since different figures are given by different sources, and none of the sources are all that reliable. I've read things that say that 18 million people died in Nazi concentration camps, while other texts claim that only 11 million people died, and some put it at 9 million. Some texts state that 5.5 million Poles were killed, and that 3 million of them were Jews, which means that 2.5 million non-Jewish Poles were killed. Most of these statistics are "educated" guesses of historians, who do not agree on the actual number of people killed. The same kind of statistical guessing goes on in connection with the Turkish genocide of the Armenians (figures range from 750,000 to 3,000,000).

That said, a man's views on the holocaust are irrelevant when it comes to his standing in the Catholic Church, and that is true whether one is talking about the Church in general or a particular seminary or other institution.[/quote]

It is likely that he will be hired somewhere else. There was obviously a clash in personalities at that seminary. Maybe it wasn't in the best interest of everyone that he stay there. We may never know.

Sometimes people just aren't meant to be on a certain path while doing God's will. I will not judge and say what God's will was in this situation. And never know, they could kiss and make up.

[Aloysius]

no, he was removed solely on the basis of political correctness. +Williamson himself references the prophet Jonah as to why he is being treated thusly by the Society (and he accepts it for the Society's sake): " Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you."

here is the full interview he gave with Der Spiegel:

[quote]SPIEGEL: The Vatican is demanding that you retract your denial of the Holocaust, and it is threatening to not allow you to resume your activities as a bishop. How will you react?

Williamson: Throughout my life, I have always sought the truth. That is why I converted to Catholicism and became a priest. And now I can only say something, the truth of which I am convinced. Because I realize that there are many honest and intelligent people who think differently, I must now review the historical evidence once again. I said the same thing in my interview with Swedish television: Historical evidence is at issue, not emotions. And if I find this evidence, I will correct myself. But that will take time.

SPIEGEL: How can an educated Catholic deny the Holocaust?

Williamson: I addressed the subject in the 1980s. I had read various writings at the time. I cited the Leuchter report (eds. note: a debunked theory produced in the 1980s claiming erroneously that the Nazi gas chambers were technically impractical) in the interview, and it seemed plausible to me. Now I am told that it has been scientifically refuted. I plan now to look into it.

SPIEGEL: You could travel to Auschwitz yourself.

Williamson: No, I will not travel to Auschwitz[color="#FF0000"] [As he'd likely be arrested by the Nazi-esque thought-police policies of modern Germany -Aloysius][/color]. I've ordered the book by Jean-Claude Pressac. It's called "Auschwitz: Technique and Operation of the Gas Chambers." A printout is now being sent to me, and I will read it and study it.

SPIEGEL: The Society of Saint Pius X has set an ultimatum for the end of February. Are you not risking a break with the group?

Williamson: In the Old Testament, the Prophet Jonah tells the sailors when their ship is in distress: " Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you." The Society has a religious mission that is suffering because of me. I will now examine the historic evidence. If I do not find it convincing, I will do everything in my power to avoid inflicting any further harm on the Church and the Society.

SPIEGEL: What does the repeal of the excommunication by Pope Benedict XVI mean to you?

Williamson: We just want to be Catholic, nothing else. We have not developed our own teachings, but are merely preserving the things that the Church has always taught and practiced. And in the sixties and seventies, when everything was changed in the name of this Council (eds. note: the Second Vatican Council), it was suddenly a scandal. As a result, we were forced to the margins of the church, and now that empty churches and an aging clergy make it clear that these changes were a failure, we are returning to the center. That's the way it is for us conservatives: we are proved right, as long as we wait long enough.

SPIEGEL: People at the Vatican claimed that they didn't know you. Is that true?

Williamson: Most contacts pass through Bishop Fellay and the General Council, of which I am not a member. But three of us four bishops attended a private dinner with Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos in 2000. It was more about getting to know each other, but we certainly talked about theological issues and even a bit of philosophy. The cardinal was very friendly.

SPIEGEL: The Second Vatican Council counts as one of the great achievements of the Catholic Church. Why do you not fully recognize it?

Williamson: It is absolutely unclear what we are supposed to recognize. An important document is called "Gaudium et spes," or Joy and Hope. In it, the writers rhapsodize about the ability of mass tourism to bring people together. But one can hardly expect a conservative society to embrace package tours. It discusses fears and hardships. And then a nuclear war between the superpowers is mentioned. You see, much of this is already outdated. [b]These Council documents are always ambiguous. Because no one knew what exactly this was supposed to mean, everyone started doing as he wished shortly after the Council. This has resulted in this theological chaos we have today. [/b]What are we supposed to recognize, the ambiguity or the chaos?

SPIEGEL: Are you actually aware that you are dividing the Church with your extreme views?

Williamson: Only violation of the dogmas, that is, the infallible principles, destroys faith. The Second Vatican Council declared that it would proclaim no new dogmas. Today the liberal bishops act as though it were some sort of all-encompassing super-dogma, and they use it as justification for a dictatorship of relativism. This contradicts the texts of the Council.

SPIEGEL: Your position on Judaism is consistently anti-Semitic.

Williamson: St. Paul put it this way: [b]The Jews are beloved for the sake of Our Father, but our enemies for the sake of the gospel.[/b]

SPIEGEL: Do you seriously intend to use Catholic tradition and the Bible to justify your anti-Semitism?

Williamson: Anti-Semitism means many things today, for instance, when one criticizes the Israeli actions in the Gaza Strip. [b]The Church has always understood the definition of anti-Semitism to be the rejection of Jews because of their Jewish roots. This is condemned by the Church. [/b]Incidentally, this is self-evident in a religion whose founders and all important individuals in its early history were Jews. But it was also clear, because of the large number of Jewish Christians in early Christianity, that all men need Christ for their salvation -- all men, including the Jews.

SPIEGEL: The pope will travel to Israel soon, where he plans to visit the Holocaust Memorial. Are you also opposed to this?

Williamson: Making a pilgrimage to the Holy Land is a great joy for Christians. I wish the Holy Father all the best on his journey. What troubles me about Yad Vashem is that Pope Pius XII is attacked there, even though no one saved more Jews during the Nazi period than he did. For instance, he had baptismal certificates issued for persecuted Jews to protect them against arrest. These facts have been distorted to mean exactly the opposite. Otherwise, I hope that the pope will also have an eye and a heart for the women and children who were injured in the Gaza Strip, and that he will speak out in support of the Christian population in Bethlehem, which is now walled in.

SPIEGEL: Your statements have caused great injury and outrage in the Jewish world. Why don't you apologize?

Williamson: [b]If I realize that I have made an error, I will apologize. I ask every human being to believe me when I say that I did not deliberately say anything untrue. I was convinced that my comments were accurate, based on my research in the 1980s. Now I must review everything again and look at the evidence.[/b]

SPIEGEL: Do you at least recognize universal human rights?

Williamson: When human rights were declared in France, hundreds of thousands were killed throughout France. Where human rights are considered an objective order for the state to implement, there are constantly anti-Christian policies. When it comes to preserving the individual's freedom of conscience against the democratic state, then human rights perform an important function. The individual needs these rights against a country that behaves like a Leviathan. But the Christian concept of the state is a different one, so that the Christian theories of human rights emphasize that freedom is not an end in itself. [b]The point is not freedom from something, but freedom for something. For good.[/b]

SPIEGEL: Your statements and the lifting of your excommunication have triggered protests worldwide. Can you understand this?

Williamson: A single interview on Swedish television has dominated the news for weeks in Germany. Yes, it does surprise me. Is this the case with all violations of the law in Germany? Hardly. No, [b]I am only the tool here, so that action can be taken against the SSPX and the pope. Apparently Germany's leftist Catholicism has not yet forgiven Ratzinger for becoming pope.[/b]

Interview conducted by Peter Wensierski and Steffen Winter

Interview conducted in German and translated into English by Christopher Sultan[/quote]
(emphasis added)
link: [url="http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,606323,00.html"]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/...,606323,00.html[/url]
Fr. Z's comments: [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/der-spiegel-sspx-bp-williamsons-interesting-points-to-a-hostile-interviewer/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/der-spiegel...le-interviewer/[/url]

God bless this bishop of Our Lord.

[lilac_angel]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1777147' date='Feb 9 2009, 08:01 PM']no, he was removed solely on the basis of political correctness. +Williamson himself references the prophet Jonah as to why he is being treated thusly by the Society (and he accepts it for the Society's sake): " Take me up, and cast me forth into the sea; so shall the sea be calm unto you: for I know that for my sake this great tempest is upon you."

here is the full interview he gave with Der Spiegel:


(emphasis added)
link: [url="http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,606323,00.html"]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/...,606323,00.html[/url]
Fr. Z's comments: [url="http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/der-spiegel-sspx-bp-williamsons-interesting-points-to-a-hostile-interviewer/"]http://wdtprs.com/blog/2009/02/der-spiegel...le-interviewer/[/url]

God bless this bishop of Our Lord.[/quote]


The SSPX being politically correct? Now that's something you don't hear every day.

I think it's a little judgmental of him to say that about "leftist Catholics" not forgiving Ratzinger. He knows nothing about why certain people feel the way they do about his statements about the Holocaust (while though the estimates may vary, it's a certainty that deaths are in the millions). Our mission is to minister to Jews, not call them our enemies in public.

The New Testament tells us not to provoke, and that's what he is doing by calling a whole race (some Jews are only Jews by heritage only, pretty much) our enemies. Sure he can consider Jews who have rejected Christ as enemies, but using the term so freely and publically doesn't exactly reel them in. My Jewish best friend was considering Christianity not long ago, but I haven't heard from her on that in a while, despite my efforts to help.

Edited February 10, 2009 by lilac_angel

[lilac_angel]

I also think that step 1 of loving our enemies is not saying "you're my enemy" to them.

[Aloysius]

he was clearly talking about those of the religion of Rabbinic Judaism, as later in the interview he made clear anti-semitism as "the rejection of Jews because of their Jewish roots" is rightly condemned by the Church. He was using St. Paul's own words; where, may I ask you, do the gospels or epistles tell us "not to provoke"?!! the gospels and epistles tell us just the opposite of that, in fact.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='lilac_angel' post='1777218' date='Feb 9 2009, 09:03 PM']I also think that step 1 of loving our enemies is not saying "you're my enemy" to them.[/quote]
NOT AT ALL!!! loving your enemy does not mean lying to them or being subversive. You must be clear and honest about who your enemies are... part of loving your enemies in the Christian context is HAVING enemies. if you don't have enemies, you're not being a good Christian, as Christ told us that the world would hate us.