Aloysius Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 every Catholic is fully free in conscience to deny the holocaust, the moon landing, or any genocide of history if they believe that's what the research they have done indicates; indeed, such opinions can be freely held by a Catholic in good standing; just not by an historian in good standing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1777688' date='Feb 10 2009, 01:41 AM']the thing that you interpretted into it was pretty much don't call anyone your enemy, was pretty much be nice; not to say that you didn't see that as an interpretation; I was simply challenging your use of that verse to indicate that we shouldn't refer to our enemies as our enemies. maybe I misinterpretted, but you quoted that and pretty much said "do you see anything in that that says to call them enemies?"; it would be contrary to the whole experience of the Church if that particular passage condemned provocative evangelization. Christ himself had vicious words for the Pharisees... much worse than merely the word "enemy".[/quote] Yes, you did misinterpret what I said, too. You yourself said we don't have to walk up to Jews and [u]literally call them[/u] our enemies. We can, however, [u]believe[/u] that Rabbinic Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc., are our enemies. I'm Church Militant... give me some credit, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) Sorry if I haven't been clear, or something... certain unfortunate circumstances that are a part of my reality may be making my wording a bit unclear. Edited February 10, 2009 by lilac_angel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 my point has always been that +Williamson said nothing wrong and nothing scandalous (in the interview I posted on page three, obviously his previous holocaust remarks were wrong and scandalous), and in fact said what was correct according to scriptural teaching. so long as you are not objecting to +Williamson's comments on the grounds of that scriptural passage, then we agree. we don't go up to individual Jews and call them enemies of the Gospel; but we make no secret that their religion is inimical to the Gospel. I admit I may have misinterpretted; I felt the need to defend this bishop when he says things which are amazingly good points. I dunno, I was really impressed with all of +Williamson's answers there; clear, articulate, and honest against a very hostile interviewer... I jumped on the chance to defend comments of +Williamson that were good that he might be getting heat over since before he was getting heat over comments which were bad (because they were historically wrong, not because they were against any Catholic teaching) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='lilac_angel' post='1777702' date='Feb 10 2009, 01:47 AM']We can, however, [u]believe[/u] that Rabbinic Jews, Muslims, atheists, etc., are our enemies.[/quote] My question is, are the[i] people[/i] in these religions really our enemies? Perhaps we could say that the religions are but the people themselves....I mean, honestly, people usually just believe what they were brought up to believe and their religion is largely determined by where they are born, geographically. I don't think they set out to bring down Christianity (ok I'm sure some crazies do, but I mean the majority of people). -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777052' date='Feb 9 2009, 06:22 PM']Evidently for some people the holocaust is a new article of the Catholic faith. Truly sad.[/quote] It is very dangerous when ordinary people cannot question a historical fact, nor reflect on this fact critically without being subject to hatred and contempt fordoing so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777080' date='Feb 9 2009, 06:32 PM']I am talking about anyone who thinks that his views on the holocaust have any importance in connection with his being a bishop or a Catholic. Catholics can be in error on any number of events from general history and still be Catholics in good standing.[/quote] Bishop Williamson may think that the Moon isn't made out of Limburger che/ese. So what? Since that view has nothing to do with faith and morals, he should keep it to himself. The moment he comes out and says that he thinks the Moon is made out of Limburger che/ese, he a) looks like an idiot and b) consequently brings disrepute onto both his office and the Church as a whole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kenrockthefirst' post='1777815' date='Feb 10 2009, 06:21 AM']Bishop Williamson may think that the Moon isn't made out of Limburger che/ese. So what? Since that view has nothing to do with faith and morals, he should keep it to himself. The moment he comes out and says that he thinks the Moon is made out of Limburger che/ese, he a) looks like an idiot and b) consequently brings disrepute onto both his office and the Church as a whole.[/quote] Plenty of bishops look like idiots. Bishop Williamson can express his opinions on any issue, just as you or I (or any bishop) can. Edited February 10, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihil Obstat Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 To play devil's advocate for a minute... I was thinking about this last night. Bishop Williamson's comments, while not in and of themselves against our faith or anything like that, show a lack of prudence. In our world today, anyone with common sense knows the trouble that they will find themselves in by saying anything that may diminish the Holocaust. Bishop Williamson should have known this. As a bishop of the SSPX, he acts in many ways as their public face. Comments like these reflect very poorly (rightly or not) on the SSPX as an organization, forcing his other three bishops to defend him. Good sense should have dictated that he keep these extremely controversial views to himself, or at least not say them in such a way that will become international news. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkerlina Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1777851' date='Feb 10 2009, 10:50 AM']To play devil's advocate for a minute... I was thinking about this last night. Bishop Williamson's comments, while not in and of themselves against our faith or anything like that, show a lack of prudence. In our world today, anyone with common sense knows the trouble that they will find themselves in by saying anything that may diminish the Holocaust. Bishop Williamson should have known this. As a bishop of the SSPX, he acts in many ways as their public face. Comments like these reflect very poorly (rightly or not) on the SSPX as an organization, forcing his other three bishops to defend him. Good sense should have dictated that he keep these extremely controversial views to himself, or at least not say them in such a way that will become international news.[/quote] I don't think that's being the Devil's advocate, I think it's a good point. I also have to wonder what would cause anyone in the first place to question the numbers of those killed during the Holocaust-I mean, maybe he honestly had good reason, I don't know, but it is worrisome that someone would say "you know, I really don't think 6 million Jewish people were killed, I bet it was less, let me go find out..." I'm not saying this is what he did, per se I just don't know why anyone (like the people/person who started this whole theory) would have a reason to try to prove that the Nazis killed less people than they did-it seems to me that they would thereby be calling a lot of people liars and suggesting that some people were fabricating the facts. -Katie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maggyie Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Sorry but I have a hard time feeling bad for Bishop Williamson. The man thinks The Sound of Music is of the devil. He has made numerous other bizarre statements in the past which I believe got him "semi-exiled" to Latin America in the first place. However brilliant he may be, he has very poor pastoral judgment and he should NOT be involved in the formation of priests. We all know people who have a lot of book smarts but who lack the common sense required to be in a leadership position. Bishop Williamson hasn't got it. With these latest comments he has caused major problems for the SSPX's ministry in Germany, Sweden etc. I am sure the rest of the SSPX leadership is hoping he decides he has a cloistered vocation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenrockthefirst Posted February 10, 2009 Author Share Posted February 10, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1777830' date='Feb 10 2009, 10:06 AM']Plenty of bishops look like idiots. Bishop Williamson can express his opinions on any issue, just as you or I (or any bishop) can.[/quote] When I as Joe Layperson express an opinion, who cares? Of course Bishop Williamson is free to hold and express any opinion he cares to. But he must realize that he's in a position where his views will receive much greater scrutiny than most people's, and that, rightly or wrongly, they reflect upon his office and the Church as a whole. Essentially, he made the Pope look like a jerk for an issue that has no bearing on the Church's mission but which now hurts the Church's mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 This raises a good question... When Williamson is reinstated as a bishop of the Church in full communion, will we still be able to criticize him on here? Just wondering... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lilac_angel Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 [quote name='qfnol31' post='1778494' date='Feb 11 2009, 12:31 AM']This raises a good question... When Williamson is reinstated as a bishop of the Church in full communion, will we still be able to criticize him on here? Just wondering...[/quote] Haven't people criticized bishops in Medjugorje? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 LoL, I was just poking fun at the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now