Trying Initial Conversion Again

[Brother Adam]

I'm going to try this one more time before I give up....I'm not here to argue. I'm not here to tell you that you are wrong. I'm not here to have you tell me I must convert. I'm here to learn, as I have been for over a year now.

Now, I know we have already gone through this some, so somewhat in fear I ask,

When considering all these words, grace, faith, works, and how they relate to redemption, to someone who is used to "corporate theology" where the covenant is more a contract than a something of a family affair, how would you explain the differences on how grace, faith, and works, acts when redeeming and infant or a severely handicapped person compared to redeeming an adult capable of a response to the gospel?


How many non-Catholic Christians will go to heaven? I'm not asking for an exact number, but what do you think.

Edited March 19, 2004 by Brother Adam

[Livin_the_MASS]

[quote]where the covenant is more a contract than a something of a family affair[/quote]

The New Covenant Is a family bond??? You can't switch it around like that or you will not be able to answer your own questions! Maybe I'm not understanding what your trying to say? I want to try to help, Explain further if I'm not cathin ya!

God Bless You

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[Aloysius]

the last question: we don't know. i mean, it just depends on the state of their souls.. that's a pretty vague question.

anyway, the free gift of grace is given because of the faith [b]([/b]belief [i]Romans 10:6-11[/i], works [i]James 2:17[/i], and love [i]1 Corinthians 14:2[/i][b])[/b], of the parents. if the parents are pledging to bring those children up in that faith, teaching them to believe, do good because of that belief, and love. so the parents faith brings faith and the parents give that grace to their kids, a person can impart faith by their teaching and works and faith [i]Romans 1:11[/i]


ergh, gotta go i'm in school now, cya lata. Pax Christi, i'll finish lata

[p0lar_bear]

[quote]When considering all these words, grace, faith, works, and how they relate to redemption, to someone who is used to "corporate theology" where the covenant is more a contract than a something of a family affair, how would you explain the differences on how grace, faith, and works, acts when redeeming and infant or a severely handicapped person compared to redeeming an adult capable of a response to the gospel?[/quote]

I think the first step would probably be to try to change the person's understanding of covenant....However, since I know you already have an understanding of covenant that goes beyond a contract, I won't do that here.

One of the things that makes a conversation like this between Catholics and many other Christians difficult is that both approach the subject with very different presuppositions. This problem is compounded by the fact that we often use the same words but with different meanings. So, I apologize if some of this seems a bit elementary, but I would prefer to start with some definitions.

So, grace is free. It cannot be earned, merited, or otherwise deserved in any way (initially or later).

In addition, the goal of grace, and indeed of our lives, is to become partakers of the divine nature. God calls us to intimate union with Him.

[quote][i]Grace is a participation in the life of God.[/i] It introduces us into the intimacy of Trinitarian life: by Baptism the Christian participates in the grace of Christ, the Head of his Body. As an "adopted son" he can henceforth call God "Father," in union with the only Son. He receives the life of the Spirit who breathes charity into him and who forms the Church (no. 1997, emphasis added).[/quote]

Finally, we are able to receive and respond to grace because of grace.
[cf. Catechism 1996-2005]


Now Faith:
Faith is both a gift of God and a free assent to the whole truth God has revealed. It is at the same time an gift from God and an act of man.

[quote] In faith, the human intellect and will cooperate with divine grace: "Believing is an act of the intellect assenting to the divine truth by command of the will moved by God through grace."(St. Thomas Aquinas, STh II-II,2,9; cf. Dei Filius 3:DS 3010) (no. 155)[/quote]

Now, while faith is a free gift which is necessary for salvation, it can also be lost.

[quote]To live, grow and persevere in the faith until the end we must nourish it with the word of God; we must beg the Lord to increase our faith (Cf. Mk 9:24; Lk 17:5; 22:32); it must be "working through charity," abounding in hope, and rooted in the faith of the Church (Gal 5:6; Rom 15:13; cf. Jas 2:14-26).[/quote]

Faith is needed not only to come to God, but also to persevere in the Christian life. Part of sustaining that faith is "working through charity." So, in part, works are a way of sustaining our faith.


Works:
St. Augustine provides:

[quote]Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing(St. Augustine, De natura et gratia, 31:PL 44,264).[/quote]

Something that, I think, is often misunderstood is that our works are 'meritorious' only in as much as we are collaborating with God.

As you quoted on your first thread, "no one can merit initial grace."

However, "moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life" (Catechism 2010).

It is important to recognize the difference between justification and sanctification. Justification can be seen as a legal declaration of innocence. Sanctification, on the other hand, is an interior development, actually becoming holy.

We are still left with the question of how we, mere humans, can 'merit' or 'earn' grace, which we already said was a free gift from God.

What it boils down to is incorporation into Christ. In baptism, we enter into union with Christ, not just a contract or even a friendship. We share in His suffering that we may also share in His resurrection. Because we are one with Christ, we are able to unite our works and our sufferings to the works and sufferings of Christ. It is through this union that our works can be meritorious.

Even though our works can be meritorious, we do not 'earn' our salvation or sanctification. Even the merit is a gift from God, because He allows us to participate in His work and His grace.

[quote]The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that [i]God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace[/i]. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit (Catechism 2008, original emphasis).[/quote]


I hope this makes sense... It probably doesn't flow very well...^O^


Anyway, your question was about infant baptism.

Like Aloysius said, infants are baptized on the basis of the faith of their parents. If the priest has reason to believe that the child will not be raised in the faith, he is not supposed to baptize him.

Baptism is a Sacrament, which means it actually effects what it signifies. It causes an ontological change in man. In receiving baptism, the infant receives the graces contected to the Sacrament. These graces can help the child grow in faith as they learn, and grow, and develop.

Edited March 19, 2004 by p0lar_bear

[Jake Huether]

[quote]How many non-Catholic Christians will go to heaven? I'm not asking for an exact number, but what do you think. [/quote]


Is that a trick question? LOL.

My answer? None.

Because a non-Catholic Christian, who dies in the state of Grace, through invincible ignorance or whatever, by the time they actually get into heaven, will be Catholic.

In heaven, there are only Catholics.

[b]That is not saying that one who dies a non-Catholic will not enter heaven.[/b]


But is it possible for one to, for instance, deny Christ in the Eucharist, once they are in heaven - and have been revealed this truth? Can one who is in heaven deny the communion of Saints or their intercessory influence? There are no protests in Heaven, because everyone in Heaven believes the same thing. They are to the very full extent of the word "universal" or Catholic.

Even "Catholics" who die in a state of Grace, yet had ignorantly held on to things that weren't exactly Catholic will become Catholic!


Now, how many people who die as non-Catholics will eventually become Catholic and go into heaven?

Only God knows.


Hope that makes sense.

[KennC]

Jake, made sense to me!

[Brother Adam]

Thank you, that helps some. When we see the faith of others saving some in the scriptures, it seems to be always incorporated with physical healing, how can we appropriately tie this in with redemption?

[Livin_the_MASS]

CCC 157

[quote]"Faith is [i]certain[/i]. It is more certain than all human knowledge because it is founded on the very word of God who cannot lie. To be sure, revealed truths can seem obscure to a human reason and experience, but "the certainty that the divine light gives is greater than that which the natural reason gives." "Ten thousand difficulties do not make one doubt."[/quote]


CCC 158

[quote]"Faith [i]seeks understanding[/i]": it is intrinsic to faith that a believer desires to know better the One in whom he has put his faith and to understand better what He has revealed; a more penertrating knowledge will in turn call forth a greater faith, increasingly set afire by love. The grace of faith opens "the eyes of your hearts" to a lively understanding of the contents of Revelation: that is, of the totality of God's plan and the mysteries of faith, of their connection with each other and with Christ, the center of the revealed mystery.
"The same Holy Spirit constantly perfects faith by his gifts, so that Revelation may be more and more profoundly understood." In the word of St. Augustine, "I believe, in order to understand;and I understand, the better to believe."[/quote]


CCC 160

[quote]"To be human, "man's response to God by faith must be free, and ...therefore nobody is to be forced to embrace the faith against his will. The act of faith is of its very nature a free act." "God calls men to serve him in spirit and in truth. Consequntly they are bound to him in conscience, but not coerced...This fact received its fullest manifestation in Christ Jesus." Indeed, Christ invited people to faith and conversion, but never coerced them. " For he bore witness to the truth but refused to use force to impose it on those who spoke against it. His kingdom...grows by the love with which Christ, lifted up on the cross, draws men to himself."[/quote]


CCC 165

[quote]"It is then we must turn to the [i]witnesses of faith[/i]: to Abraham, who "in hope...believed against hope", to the Virgin Mary, who, in "her pilgrimage of faith," walked into the "night of faith" in sharing the darkness of her son's suffering and death; and to so many others: "Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith."[/quote]


CCC 166

[quote]"Faith is a personal act---the free response of the human person to the initative of God who reveals himself. But faith is not an isolated act. No one can believe alone, just as no one can live alone. You have not given yourself faith as you have not given yourself life. The believer has received faith from others and should hand it on to others. Our love for Jesus and for our neighbor impels us to speak to others about our faith. Each believer is thus a link in the great chain of believers. I cannot believe without being carried by the faith of others, and by my faith I help support others in the faith."[/quote]

This should help!!!!

[p0lar_bear]

Infant baptism is also connected to circumcision. Jewish males were circumcised on the eighth day. This, of course, was long before they could make a personal decision to be Jewish, yet, God commanded it. The infants were considered part of the People of God because of that circumcision. Today infants become part of the People of God by being baptized. Both cases rest on the faith and obedience of the parents.

[Jericho923]

[url="http://catholicapologetics.org"]Cath Apologetics[/url]

This also helped me with those type of questions

[the lumberjack]

Polar bear...nice post...lots of good points...however....

[quote]Like Aloysius said, infants are baptized on the basis of the faith of their parents. If the priest has reason to believe that the child will not be raised in the faith, he is not supposed to baptize him.[/quote]

first question...has anyone ever seen a priest NOT baptize a baby because of this reason? i'm curious if it ever has happened...

[quote]Faith is needed not only to come to God, but also to persevere in the Christian life.[/quote]

if faith is needed to come to God, and to persevere in the Christian life, then how can a baby, who has no faith, receive something from its parents which it is not aware of?

[quote]Part of sustaining that faith is "working through charity." So, in part, works are a way of sustaining our faith.[/quote]

sustaining? or showing? its God's trueness (true to His word and love) that sustains our faith...and its our works, whether at our job, school, eating nachos from 7-11, whatever...that would show our faith. I hope I'm not coming off as ignorant or insulting...I'm just trying to get some clarification on what you meant...

-----------

and Jake, to say that there will be ANY religion in Heaven, or even in death for that matter...is ummmm...we will all be communing in fellowship and praise of God. sons and daughters, living to praise the Lord for His greatness and love.

love.

[Dave]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 19 2004, 12:08 PM'] first question...has anyone ever seen a priest NOT baptize a baby because of this reason?  i'm curious if it ever has happened...
[/quote]

Yes, it does happen. When pop singer Madonna wanted to have her first child baptized, the priest refused because she said she planned to teach her that the Bible was just "a bunch of lies written by liars."

[quote]if faith is needed to come to God, and to persevere in the Christian life, then how can a baby, who has no faith, receive something from its parents which it is not aware of?[/quote]

Consider this passage from Luke: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16). Notice that the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Proseferon de auto kai ta brephe). The Greek word brephe means "infants"— those who aren't aware. Yet Jesus said that "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom.

Then in Colossians, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

It was usually babies who were circumcised. Adult converts to Judaism were rare, but when they happened, the men were circumcised. And so since baptism replaces circumcision, it's only right that infants be baptized too if their parents intend to raise them in the faith.

[quote]sustaining?  or showing?  its God's trueness (true to His word and love) that sustains our faith...and its our works, whether at our job, school, eating nachos from 7-11, whatever...that would show our faith.  I hope I'm not coming off as ignorant or insulting...I'm just trying to get some clarification on what you meant...[/quote]

Both. God gives us the grace we need to sustain our faith, but we also have to do our part by doing good works. It's a 2-way street. Our works both show AND sustain our faith.

[quote]and Jake, to say that there will be ANY religion in Heaven, or even in death for that matter...is ummmm...we will all be communing in fellowship and praise of God.  sons and daughters, living to praise the Lord for His greatness and love.[/quote]

But by the time we die, we'll be in the midst of God, who is ALL TRUTH. Whatever about Him or His teachings that we were ignorant of during our lives, we will know after death. Since Catholicism has the fullness of truth, then since we'll know all truth, we'll all be Catholic after we die.

Edited March 19, 2004 by Dave

[Livin_the_MASS]

Amen!!!! Go Dave :cheer: Go Dave Go Dave :director:

Peace God Bless

[Brother Adam]

Again, how can we appropriately tie the faith of others to eternally redeeming another soul, when we are each induvidually responsible for our own soul. The examples in the Bible lead me to believe "prayers avail much", but not that my faith could save Lumberjack.

Jason, I love you man, but I've read a good portion of the catachism and Jericho, I probably have more links in my library now than phatcatholic has on the apologetics board.

I guess what I'm hoping for here is what YOU think. Why you believe what you do.

[Brother Adam]

Sorry, I didnt' see Dave's post when i went to post mine. Dave, you are da man.

[the lumberjack]

[quote]Yes, it does happen.  When pop singer Madonna wanted to have her first child baptized, the priest refused because she said she planned to teach her that the Bible was just "a bunch of lies written by liars."[/quote]

not exactly the BEST of examples...lol...but an example nonetheless. I was talking about someone from the church...just an average person, have they ever been denied?


[quote]Consider this passage from Luke: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).  Notice that the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Proseferon de auto kai ta brephe). The Greek word brephe means "infants"— those who aren't aware.  Yet Jesus said that "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom.[/quote]

but Christ also said in verse 17:

Luke 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

[quote]5. It is the mind of Christ that little children should be brought to him, and presented as living sacrifices to his honour: "Suffer little children to come to me, and forbid them not; let nothing be done to hinder them, for they shall be as welcome as any.’’ The promise is to us, and to our seed; and therefore he that has the dispensing of promised blessings will bid them welcome to him with us.

6. The children of those who belong to the kingdom of God do likewise belong to that kingdom, as the children of freemen are freemen. If the parents be members of the visible church, the children are so too; for, if the root be holy, the branches are so.

7. So welcome are children to Christ that those grown people are most welcome to him who have in them most of the disposition of children (v. 17): Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, that is, receive the benefits of it with humility and thankfulness, not pretending to merit them as the Pharisee did, but gladly owning himself indebted to free grace for them, as the publican did; unless a man be brought to this self-denying frame he shall in no wise enter into that kingdom. They must receive the kingdom of God as children, receive their estates by descent and inheritance, not by purchase, and call it their Father’s gift.[/quote]

and while yes, our children are kept holy because of us and our teachings while they are babies, what effect does that baptism have when they grow up and choose to not follow the teachings of their parents and of God?

is this the parent's fault? though we have persevered and raised them in the way the Lord wanted? has our faith not sustained them? is our faith faulty? does the baptism wear off?

[quote]Both.  God gives us the grace we need to sustain our faith, but we also have to do our part by doing good works.  It's a 2-way street.  Our works both show AND sustain our faith.[/quote]

I feel you on that...

[quote]Then in Colossians, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.[/quote]

didn't Paul write this because the Christian Jews were trying to get all the new Christians to get circumcised? so of course he's going to make reference to circumcision (physically which the Jews had to do) and baptism...which we have to do.

love.

[hopeful1]

[quote name='Jake Huether' date='Mar 19 2004, 11:35 AM']

Is that a trick question? LOL.

My answer? None.

Because a non-Catholic Christian, who dies in the state of Grace, through invincible ignorance or whatever, by the time they actually get into heaven, will be Catholic.

In heaven, there are only Catholics.

[b]That is not saying that one who dies a non-Catholic will not enter heaven.[/b]


But is it possible for one to, for instance, deny Christ in the Eucharist, once they are in heaven - and have been revealed this truth? Can one who is in heaven deny the communion of Saints or their intercessory influence? There are no protests in Heaven, because everyone in Heaven believes the same thing. They are to the very full extent of the word "universal" or Catholic.

Even "Catholics" who die in a state of Grace, yet had ignorantly held on to things that weren't exactly Catholic will become Catholic!


Now, how many people who die as non-Catholics will eventually become Catholic and go into heaven?

Only God knows.


Hope that makes sense. [/quote]
i've never looked at it that way before, thanks for the new perspective Jake!

[Livin_the_MASS]

OK Brother Adam I'll give my conversion story (shortened) hee...hee,

I was born and raised Catholic, but it was more of a go to Church on Sunday thing. My parents were not taught the things we know today about our Catholic faith. Every Sunday dad was upstairs pulling the blinds up wakin me up "Time to go to Church son!" Well I hit my teenage years and sunk bottom. Got a little older got a job, stop going to church. I worked with a protestant and went to his service, something just didn't feel right. So I started to pray "Lord move me were do you want me to go?" I never left the Catholic Church but I was lost at the time, in search like you! Well one night about 2 or 3 years ago I fell on my knees and said a prayer to the Holy Spirit in tears. I was having health problems at the time. I was into sinful vices, I was at bottom. Almost instantly I changed. I went to confession for the first time in 15 years. After I went to confession I was lifted. My dad goes to Mass everyday now. Well one morning I said I'm going to Church. I went that day went home, read scripture and Christ open my eyes. It was like a train coming at me it gives me goose bumps thinking about it. I started going to Daily Mass (Which is His Credit,"Who is good but God alone.") everyday almost at first, Christ was showing things to me. Then Mary got into my life. I prayed one day at my mom and dads house that I was living at and prayed to find a good home for my family. I can't explain it but when I said that I had such a peace inside of me, (I can't explain it). Next day I called around looking for a house, first the lady said no, well half an hour later she called me back, knew my family and wanted me to rent the house. Then the Holy Rosary was introduced into my life, I understood as a meditation of the Gospels finally. E.W.T.N came into my life and I took off with wings. Everytime I would understand something in Scripture I would call someone and tell them. I was blessed by a priest who went to parishes for Eucharistic Adoration to proclaim His True Presence in The Eucharist. He had a cloth that they when He wiped the Sacred Chalice, a blood spot was left on it. True gift! After that I went to Adoration Once a week. I know what I know because I've come to know Jesus in the "Breaking of the Bread". I figure He has revealed these Truths to me for a reason, so I better not keep it to myself I have to share with others.

Anyway, I started going to an evangilst group near my home. Now I,ve extended it to here. I believe with all my heart in the Catholic Church, I would die for Jesus in the Eucharist! I wouldn't say that if it was just bread. He would have to give me the strength to do this. The early Christians when they were in prision asked for Holy Communion so they would have the strength not to deny Him out of fear for losing their lives.

Why do I believe what I believe, because of Jesus Truly Present in The Holy Eucharist, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL, AND DIVINTY. Its in the Eucharist, all the answers your looking for are there, because it's Jesus, the one you are longing for, the Truth you are searching for.

God Bless
Peace and Love

Edited March 19, 2004 by Jason

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Mar 19 2004, 12:08 PM']
not exactly the BEST of examples...lol...but an example nonetheless.  I was talking about someone from the church...just an average person, have they ever been denied?

[/quote]
Yes. When my husband and I went in to schedule our daughter's Baptism our priest had a chat with us about the responsibilities and importance of Baptism. During the meeting he told me about having to turn away a couple because they did not go to Mass and did not take their faith seriously--they weren't even members of his parish. They only wanted to have the child Baptized because the husband's father had asked when they were going to do it and the grandfather happened to be a member of the parish--they only did it to "get him off their backs". (Funny side note, to show them how its important to go forward with Baptizing your children with the right intentions and all he used the Godfather movies as an example of how not to be. lol) He told them they needed to start practicing their faith before he could Baptize their child.

[KennC]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 19 2004, 11:34 AM']Again, how can we appropriately tie the faith of others to eternally redeeming another soul, when we are each induvidually responsible for our own soul. The examples in the Bible lead me to believe "prayers avail much", but not that my faith could save Lumberjack.
[/quote]
[quote] KJB 1Cr 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.[/quote]
How do we view this passage?

Ken