The Greek Orthodox Churches

[Resurrexi]

...

[Apotheoun]

There was a thread on this topic at the Byzantine Forum, and an individual who goes by the named Griego Catolico posted the following quotation from the [i]Roman Martyrology[/i] about St. Sergius of Radonezh (A.D. 1320 - 1392), an Orthodox saint who lived after the time of the great schism, and who is also venerated as a saint in the Roman Church on the 25th of September (and on the same day in the Eastern Catholic Churches):

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium." [[i]Martyrologium Romanum[/i], published by the Holy See in 2004, page 536]

As an Eastern Catholic I venerate many "Orthodox" saints, including, but not limited to, St. Photios, St. Gregory Palamas, and St. Sergius of Radonezh.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

Below is a link to the propers for the celebration of vespers on the feast of St. Gregory Palamas (i.e., the Second Sunday of Great Fast) in the Ruthenian Catholic Church:

[url="http://www.metropolitancantorinstitute.org/sheetmusic/general/GF2SundayGreatVespers.pdf"][u]Vesper Propers for the Second Sunday of the Great Fast: Memory of our Holy Father Gregory, Archbishop of Thessalonica[/u][/url]


In addition to the information that I have provided in the link above, I am also providing a link to the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Stamford's website, because that site also contains information about the celebration of the Feast of St. Gregory Palamas, which – as I have already indicated – takes place on the Second Sunday of Great Fast (17 February in 2008):

[url="http://www.stamforddio.org/Feb.08.pdf"][u]Liturgical Celebrations for February 2008[/u][/url]

Edited February 16, 2009 by Apotheoun

[cmotherofpirl]

It doesn't really matter about orthodox opinion, it does matter what the Eastern Catholic branches think. The catholic faithful doesn't vote on sainthood.

[Apotheoun]

[url="http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/295107/St%20Photius"][u]St. Photios' Feast is celebrated on 6 February[/u][/url]

[Nihil Obstat]

Why would we venerate Photius, just out of curiosity?
I understand why the Orthodox do, but why would Catholics?

Edited February 16, 2009 by Nihil Obstat

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1782057' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:05 PM']It doesn't really matter about orthodox opinion, it does matter what the Eastern Catholic branches think. The catholic faithful doesn't vote on sainthood.[/quote]
As my Ukrainian Catholic friends tell me, the Byzantine Churches are to keep all the Orthodox Feasts celebrated in the Menaion (and the other liturgical books) up to, and in some cases even after, the Union of Brest (A.D. 1595).

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1782064' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:10 PM']Why would we venerate Photius, just out of curiosity?
I understand why the Orthodox do, but why would Catholics?[/quote]
Why do Latin Catholics venerate St. Francis, because he has been canonized as a saint in your Church, and the same holds true for Byzantines, because St. Photios has been glorified (which is the equivalent of canonization in our tradition) as a saint in our Churches.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782068' date='Feb 15 2009, 09:14 PM']Why do Latin Catholics venerate St. Francis, because he has been canonized as a saint in your Church, and the same holds true for Byzantines, because St. Photios has been glorified (which is the equivalent of canonization in our tradition) as a saint in our Churches.[/quote]
What I meant was by what merits of his could the Catholic Church venerate him?
I'm under the distinct impression that he is not a Catholic saint. Of course I'm wrong often.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1782074' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:16 PM']What I meant was by what merits of his could the Catholic Church venerate him?
I'm under the distinct impression that he is not a Catholic saint. Of course I'm wrong often.[/quote]
He is a Father of the Church, and a profound theologian and mystic. Eastern Catholics venerate him as one of the great pillars of the Church.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782021' date='Feb 15 2009, 09:22 PM']There was a thread on this topic at the Byzantine Forum, and an individual who goes by the named Griego Catolico posted the following quotation from the [i]Roman Martyrology[/i] about St. Sergius of Radonezh (A.D. 1320 - 1392), an Orthodox saint who lived after the time of the great schism, and who is also venerated as a saint in the Roman Church on the 25th of September (and on the same day in the Eastern Catholic Churches):

"In monasterio Sanctissimae Trinitatis in Mosquensi Russiae regione, sancti Sergii de Radonez, qui, primum in silvis asperis eremita, dein vitam coenobiticam coluit et hegumenus electus propagavit, vir mitis, consiliarius principum et consolator fidelium." [[i]Martyrologium Romanum[/i], published by the Holy See in 2004, page 536][/quote]

BTW, Here is a translation of that I made for anyone who wants it:
At the monastery of the most holy Trinity in the region of Moscow, Russia, (the heavenly birthday) of the holy Sergius of Radonez, who first lived as a hermit in the rough woods, then lived the monastic life and, having been chosen to be an abbot, propagated the monastic life; a meek man, a counselor of princes and a consoler of the faithful.

[quote name='Catholic Encyclopedia article "Eastern Schism"']In a sense the schism was now complete. What had been from the beginning two portions of the same Church, what had become two entities ready to be divided, were now two rival Churches. Yet, just as there had been schisms before Photius, so there have been reunions after Caerularius. The Second Council of Lyons in 1274 and again the Council of Florence in 1439 both arrived at a reunion that people hoped would close the breach for ever. Unhappily, neither reunion lasted, neither had any solid basis on the Eastern side. The anti-Latin party, foreshadowed long ago, formed and organized by Photius, had under Caerularius become the whole "Orthodox" Church. This process had been a gradual one, but it was now complete. [b]At first the Slav Churches ([u]Russia[/u], Servia, Bulgaria, etc.) saw no reason why they should break communion with the West because a patriarch of Constantinople was angry with a pope. But the habit of looking to the capital of the empire eventually affected them too. [/b]They used the Byzantine Rite, were Easterns; so they settled on the Eastern side. Caerularius had managed cleverly to represent his cause as that of the East; it seemed (most unjustifiably) that it was a question of Byzantines versus Latins.[/quote]

Perhaps the fact that the Russians did not choose to be in schism with the Successor of St. Peter at that time affected the decision to include St. Sergius in the Martyrology.

In regards to the liturgical veneration of Orthodox Saints at some Eastern Rite churches, were those liturgical books approved by the Holy See?

Edited February 16, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782079' date='Feb 15 2009, 09:19 PM']He is a Father of the Church, and a profound theologian and mystic. Eastern Catholics venerate him as one of the great pillars of the Church.[/quote]
Is there something wrong in the fact then that the Eastern Church venerates him while the Latin Church appears to revile him?
Does it point out a contradiction which should be fixed, or can it remain like this?

[Apotheoun]

The old Catholic Encyclopedia is just that "old," it was written nearly 100 years ago, and Fr. Francis Dvornik in his magnum opus "The Photian Schism: History and Legend" proved quite nicely that St. Photios the Great died in communion with the Roman Church.

The old Catholic Encyclopedia's views on the Eastern Catholic Churches, which it called "rites," are not representative of Catholic teaching, and much of what it has to say about Eastern Catholicism is offensive to Eastern Catholics.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1782094' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:25 PM']Is there something wrong in the fact then that the Eastern Church venerates him while the Latin Church appears to revile him?
Does it point out a contradiction which should be fixed, or can it remain like this?[/quote]
Only certain Latins revile St. Photios, i.e., normally those who are unhappy to see the Eastern Catholic Churches de-Latinize themselves, a process of purification that Rome itself encouraged (and continues to support) at the close of the Second Vatican Council.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782104' date='Feb 15 2009, 09:28 PM']The old Catholic Encyclopedia is just that "old," it was written nearly 100 years ago, and Fr. Francis Dvornik in his magnum opus "The Photian Schism: History and Legend" proved quite nicely that St. Photios the Great died in communion with the Roman Church.

The old Catholic Encyclopedia's views on the Eastern Catholic Churches, which it called "rites," are not representative of Catholic teaching, and much of what it has to say about Eastern Catholicism is offensive to Eastern Catholics.[/quote]
So then is he indeed venerated as a saint in the Roman Catholic Church?

[Resurrexi]

[quote]The old Catholic Encyclopedia's views on the Eastern Catholic Churches, which it called "rites," are not representative of Catholic teaching, and much of what it has to say about Eastern Catholicism is offensive to Eastern Catholics.[/quote]

A lot of the things some Eastern "Catholics" hold today is in blunt contradiction to what the Church taught, in the early 1900s, at the Second Vatican Council, and today, and thus would probably have been offensive to the writers of the Catholic Encyclopedia.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1782113' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:32 PM']A lot of the things some Eastern "Catholics" hold today is in blunt contradiction to what the Church taught, both in the early 1900s, at the Second Vatican Council, and today.[/quote]
Eastern Catholics simply refuse to identify being Catholic with being Latin. If that is a problem, so be it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1782110' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:31 PM']So then is he indeed venerated as a saint in the Roman Catholic Church?[/quote]
His feast day is not celebrated in your liturgy, but then neither is the feast day of St. Francis celebrated in ours.

We do not celebrate any of the particular feasts of the Roman Rite.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Apotheoun' post='1782115' date='Feb 15 2009, 10:32 PM']Eastern Catholics simply refuse to identify being Catholic with being Latin. If that is a problem, so be it.[/quote]

Eastern Catholics are certainly just as Catholic as their Latin brethren in the eyes of the Church. However, the Church refuses to identify the rejection of dogmas defined and doctrines taught by Popes and Ecumenical Councils as Eastern.

Edited February 16, 2009 by Resurrexi

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Resurrexi' post='1782124' date='Feb 15 2009, 08:36 PM']Eastern Catholics are certainly just as Catholic as their Latin brethren in the eyes of the Church. However, the Church refuses to identify the rejection of dogmas defined and doctrines taught by Popes and Ecumenical Councils as Eastern.[/quote]
You and I have had these discussions before, when you were using a different screen name, and I doubt we will come to an amicable agreement any time soon.

My Church celebrates the feasts of St. Gregory Palamas, St. Photios the Great, and several other saints that you would not recognize, but that is your loss. Whenever I talk to you on Phatmass I remember a professor of mine at FUS who once said that "too many of his theology students confuse small mindedness with orthodoxy."