The Finer Points On Cohabitation

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783090' date='Feb 16 2009, 09:58 PM']I think we should clarify that a scandal isn't the same as a rumor. What you are all describing is more in the rumor territory... "somebody is doing this and they shouldn't," etc. Scandal is when other people in similar circumstances think it's okay to model their life after yours by following the logic, if Jason gets drunk at a party with his friends, and Jason is a "good" Catholic, then it's okay for anyone else to get drunk at parties with their friends. Acting on that logic causes a scandal because one person's irresponsible behavior has lead another person to the same behavior.

Likewise, some couples who are dating can stay up late watching a movie without gettin' all cute 'n cuddly and putting themselves in a compromising situation, and other couples can't. While everyone needs to be aware of their personal boundaries, we also have a responsibility to our brothers and sisters, so it wouldn't be right to say all couples should be able to watch late night movies or look down on those who aren't able to do that. In short, humility is the key.[/quote]


rumors can turn into scandel because someone can assume rumors are true(lots of people seem to believe rumors to be true) and thus think since its ok for a catholic to do such and such, its ok for me then. again, scandel can be seen in anything by anyone, whcih is why i have a problem with trying to avoid scandel since its impossible to do.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Come on... This is just semantics! How else can I say "fall in love"?[/quote]

"This I command you, to love one another." -John 15:17

We choose love, and our Lord commands us to love. It's not something we smack our face into when we weren't looking. Sometimes God will work like that, but we still keep our senses about us and obey God in love.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']I think their are many things couples should be doing when they're dating in order to see how they fit together as a couple. Living together (chastely) would be a great way to see many things like:
[list]
[*]addiction problems (alcoholism, etc.) and the effect they would have on their marriage: Often, even if the other partner knows about the addiction, they often are in denial of the problems it would create in their marriage until they are already married. I had a stoner roommate before. I knew him before and I knew he was a stoner but I didn't know how much it ran his life before living with him (laziness, anger whenever he's not high, unemployment, etc.)
[*] Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
[*] Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
[*] Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.
[/list][/quote]

What you're missing is marriage isn't some domestic or legal arrangement like having a roommate or going into business with a partner. Marriage is the joining of man and women into one flesh through a life-giving union. These other things are important to go over, but they are handled just fine through good pre-marriage counseling and the simple practice of virtue. There is no reason for unmarried couples to live like they are married (even if they are chaste) if it can be avoided somehow. It's foolish to invite trouble by flirting with the devil like this. The "secret" to marriage is loving God first, spouse second, and children third. And couples do all three of those by living chastely and separately until they are married. You can't reason your way out of that fact, but you can ignore it and deal with the consequences later.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Perhaps straight-up co-habitation can be problematic but are there any opportunities to achieve the above-listed benefits from a learning-experience similar to that of "shacking up" but not quite. Like, if I invite a girl to my family's house for thanksgiving and she stays overnight in her own room, surely that's OK, yes?[/quote]

Yes, that is fine And of course you want to meet each others' families while dating. Nearly all my married friends who are Christians have taken extensive pre-marriage counseling during their engagement so all those details of finances and chores don't hit 'em out of the blue after their honeymoon. But even then, without virtue, no amount of counseling does much good.

[quote name='mcdeltatjg' post='1783086' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:52 PM']Or if they are, say, working together at a summer camp or living in a community like Madonna House or doing missionary work together or something... I mean, some occasion where they live together but not on their own you know... Does anybody have any suggestions?[/quote]

One of my old roommates met his wife through a Christian inner-city program called Mission Year where guys and girls lived in a house together. Obviously they had rules about dress codes, sleeping situations, and having a guy present if any girls were home (for safety reasons), etc. Any dating relationships are cut off for the year, so obviously dating within the group is strictly against the rules. Of course, everyone gets to know each other very well and by that point.

I'm sure there are also third order communities. You said community living is very popular in Montreal, so there should be some opportunities there. Summer camps are a good idea. But in the end, the point to keep in mind is that couples are discerning their compatibility and mix of virtues and vices. People who bear the cross of singleness well and give entirely of themselves will make great spouses.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783121' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:29 PM']rumors can turn into scandel because someone can assume rumors are true(lots of people seem to believe rumors to be true) and thus think since its ok for a catholic to do such and such, its ok for me then. again, scandel can be seen in anything by anyone, whcih is why i have a problem with trying to avoid scandel since its impossible to do.[/quote]

The difference is rumors are assumed to be true. Scandal is based on direct observation of another person's lifestyle.

[MissyP89]

First, a question: I get that cohabitation isn't the wisest decision for many reasons. But let's say that my boyfriend comes to visit me--as he's planning to--and he spend the night in my apartment. Would that be sinful? We both have every intention to be chaste, and given that both of us are college students with bills to pay, blowing precious money on a hotel for him seems wasteful.

Second, Aloysius said,

[quote]dating is not play-marriage, dating is not test-marriage...[/quote]

Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?

[eagle_eye222001]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783117' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:26 PM']no matter how much a couple talks about finances and house work, it will do nothing to prepare them for when they live together with these problems.[/quote]

Ah, so living together in great temptation for an undefined period of time with no commitment is a novel way of solving these issues?

Couples are guaranteed to run into problems, if they don't, then there is no relationship. You seem to act as if by living together before marriage, then they will never argue and get along perfectly. Problems are gauranteed. Not saying some can be avoided before marriage. There are several important financial and social questions that should be evaluated by both parties before marriage to avoid simple bomb issues.

Also, I am going to reiterate that the reason people are married 30+ years is because they treated marriage with respect and were more careful getting married, and were more likely to work through their problems than the generation today.

Today, people have a disagreement, so they divorce. Why do people who divorce once, are more likely to divorce? Does this really have anything to do with simple things like paying bills and housekeeping? Or does it have more to do with they don't want to work through their issues? Or never really knew the other person? Or was it one wanted children and the other wanted sex? I have heard that reason more than once and I don't see living together as solving that one.

Why do people who get divorced seem more likely to get divorced? Do they really overlook the bills and housework multiple times? If the couple really loved each other, the decision of who pays the bills seems hardly the sole problem to totally take a loving relationship and crash in the desert. Something else must also be wrong with the relationship to bring that plane down.

The solution to the high divorce rate is not living together (as that brings in many couples into sin by that many will fall to temptation before marriage), but rather couples do not take marriage seriously in the first place. A.K.A. no-fault divorce.

Now, I realize divorce is called for in some cases, however, I think it is safe to state that there is an unacceptable number of divorces right now and many can be attributed to a lack of respect for marriage.

I believe that the high divorce rate has more to do with contraception and objectifying the relationship to being about sex and personal wants than it is about raising a family and the other person.

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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/semisonic/track/closing+time"]Semisonic - Closing Time[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url]

[Aloysius]

[quote]* Domestic task handling - they can see if they are able to get along and share household tasks and keep the house in order, etc. This is the cause of many fights in marriage.
* Finances - they don't have to make all their accounts joint at this point but they can see how they can manage paying the bills, etc. and even set up a joint savings account which they each commit to putting money into at regular intervals.
* Problem solving - They have much more contact with each other so much more opportunities for conflicts to arise and much more ability to see how they can work through them.[/quote]

NOOOO, these things are the things that ought to pop up in the context of a marriage, with the help of the sacramental grace that goes along with it (before marriage, these things should be talked about, but not yet experienced as you are not supposed to yet experience them). in dating they are to be talked about, but NOT YET LIVED!!! when you live these things out, when you mix your finances together while not being married or live together when not being married, you are DAMAGING your future marriage by blurring the line. you only mix your finances together when you mystically become one flesh, you don't test it out first because then you lose the sense of becoming one flesh because beforehand you already became one financial being, you took the experience of difference in the marriage away.

yes, the statistics are tricky things; however, ask priests who do pre-marital counseling and if it's a good priest they'll likely tell you that cohabitation before marriage even done chastely tends to hurt the marriage.

[quote]Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?[/quote]
it is not testing the waters as in "let's live as if we're married, see how well we fit together, and thus decide whether to get married"; it's testing each other in a whole different manner. but it would be absolutely wrong to treat dating as if it were marriage without the sex; because then you're setting up a potentially dissoluable union which is in all things but sex identical to the union you plan to be indissoluable. you test the waters by finding out what the other thinks about things, what their tastes are and what their plans and future aspirations and values are; how well you interact together and how well you get through arguing and disagreeing... and THEN you take the plunge in state in life that is marriage. blurring the lines is harmful to future marriage.

this reminds me of how Advent is often infused with all sorts of Christmas music and imagery in our culture; I'm always going on about how people need to actively reject doing Christmas things during Advent so that they can more fully experience them in the whole of the Christmas season. most people in our culture ruin their Christmases by having them during advent; and many people in our culture ruin their marriages by acting as if they're married in all things but sex (well, many people include sex in those things).

[havok579257]

[quote name='eagle_eye222001' post='1783188' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:42 PM']Ah, so living together in great temptation for an undefined period of time with no commitment is a novel way of solving these issues?

Couples are guaranteed to run into problems, if they don't, then there is no relationship. You seem to act as if by living together before marriage, then they will never argue and get along perfectly. Problems are gauranteed. Not saying some can be avoided before marriage. There are several important financial and social questions that should be evaluated by both parties before marriage to avoid simple bomb issues.

Also, I am going to reiterate that the reason people are married 30+ years is because they treated marriage with respect and were more careful getting married, and were more likely to work through their problems than the generation today.

Today, people have a disagreement, so they divorce. Why do people who divorce once, are more likely to divorce? Does this really have anything to do with simple things like paying bills and housekeeping? Or does it have more to do with they don't want to work through their issues? Or never really knew the other person? Or was it one wanted children and the other wanted sex? I have heard that reason more than once and I don't see living together as solving that one.

Why do people who get divorced seem more likely to get divorced? Do they really overlook the bills and housework multiple times? If the couple really loved each other, the decision of who pays the bills seems hardly the sole problem to totally take a loving relationship and crash in the desert. Something else must also be wrong with the relationship to bring that plane down.

The solution to the high divorce rate is not living together (as that brings in many couples into sin by that many will fall to temptation before marriage), but rather couples do not take marriage seriously in the first place. A.K.A. no-fault divorce.

Now, I realize divorce is called for in some cases, however, I think it is safe to state that there is an unacceptable number of divorces right now and many can be attributed to a lack of respect for marriage.

I believe that the high divorce rate has more to do with contraception and objectifying the relationship to being about sex and personal wants than it is about raising a family and the other person.

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Listening to: [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/semisonic/track/closing+time"]Semisonic - Closing Time[/url]
via [url="http://www.foxytunes.com/signatunes/"]FoxyTunes[/url][/quote]

when did i ever state that you have to live together- unmarried?

[Aloysius]

living together before marriage is absolutely wrong; it does violence to your future marriage pure and simple. the idea of acting as if you're married in all things but sex is a problematic view of the nature of marriage and ostensibly denies the nature of marriage as a sacrament which conveys grace.

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783133' date='Feb 16 2009, 10:42 PM']The difference is rumors are assumed to be true. Scandal is based on direct observation of another person's lifestyle.[/quote]

rumors are assumed to be true until it turns into fact. like someone tells one of their friends they think such and such are sleeping together because they always see them with each other. next thing you know it turns into fact that such and such are sleeping together. cause the next time the rumor is spread it is no longer "I think", it because "I know such and such are sleeping together because sam knows for sure and he told me." thus creating scandel.

[Aloysius]

the act of living together is inherently iconographic of sleeping together. when you do something which culturally indicates sleeping together because of its inherent role in the marital union, you are committing scandal.

I see no response to my discussion of how the boundaries are blurred and thus the marriage is destroyed. this is not just about scandal and near occasions of sin; the sociological effect of couples acting like married couples before marriage is undeniable: the marriage is weakened. always. it's Christmas in Advent, it's Easter in Lent; it might as well be sex before marriage because you're doing something which is proper ONLY to married couples outside of marriage. The Church does not merely ask one to abstain from sex outside of marriage, she asks one to abstain from EVERYTHING that is proper only to marriage when one is not married. cohabitation is absolutely one of those things which is proper only to marriage; there are other things in which a fine line can be drawn; but if you've already adopted the married life (even if you do not include sex) before you are married, you have damaged your marriage and need to repair it by clearing up the social boundaries between your pre-marriage and post-marriage relationship.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1783146' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:51 PM']First, a question: I get that cohabitation isn't the wisest decision for many reasons. But let's say that my boyfriend comes to visit me--as he's planning to--and he spend the night in my apartment. Would that be sinful? We both have every intention to be chaste, and given that both of us are college students with bills to pay, blowing precious money on a hotel for him seems wasteful.[/quote]

First, intentions don't mean anything if the situation isn't conducive to fulfilling your intention. A couple could fully intend on having sex, but due to sleeping in the living room of their parent's house, maybe that ain't gonna happen. Just be sure you're sleeping in separate rooms. But be aware that the more frequently he's in the next room, the easier it'll eventually be to cross other boundaries that you didn't intend to cross. We are aware of this stuff when we are thinking with a straight mind.


[quote name='MissyP89' post='1783146' date='Feb 16 2009, 11:51 PM']Then what is it, if not testing the waters to see if someone is a suitable spouse?[/quote]

I think his point is moving in together and essentially living like you are married without taking marriage vows is not what dating is about. If you want my two cents about it: we tend to take dating too seriously and marriage not seriously enough.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783209' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:05 AM']rumors are assumed to be true until it turns into fact. like someone tells one of their friends they think such and such are sleeping together because they always see them with each other. next thing you know it turns into fact that such and such are sleeping together. cause the next time the rumor is spread it is no longer "I think", it because "I know such and such are sleeping together because sam knows for sure and he told me." thus creating scandel.[/quote]

No, the scandal results when another Christian couple decides premarital sex is acceptable because this other Christian couple is doing it. Scandal is leading a brother or sister away from Christ or otherwise into sin through [i]your own[/i] actions -- not word of mouth through third parties. Scandal can be caused without rumor ever entering the picture.

If I'm out on a Friday night and encourage a friend to drink more than I know they can handle, thus leading them into sin, that's creating a scandal without anyone else yackin' their fool head off about it.

Edited February 17, 2009 by LouisvilleFan

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783384' date='Feb 17 2009, 10:57 AM']No, the scandal results when another Christian couple decides premarital sex is acceptable because this other Christian couple is doing it. Scandal is leading a brother or sister away from Christ or otherwise into sin through [i]your own[/i] actions -- not word of mouth through third parties. Scandal can be caused without rumor ever entering the picture.

If I'm out on a Friday night and encourage a friend to drink more than I know they can handle, thus leading them into sin, that's creating a scandal without anyone else yackin' their fool head off about it.[/quote]

scandel can happen without rumors but it can also happen with rumors. i can be out with friends and tell them that i am pretty sure that harry and jill are sleeping together because they are always together at his place. the group of my friends then tell there friends the story but instead of saying they said I think, they say havok told me that ill and harry are sleeping together. that group of friends assumes its ok for catholics to sleep together before marriage because harry and jill do it and they are hardcore catholics. thus creating scandel.

just about anything can be made into scandel, which is why i have a problem with us worring about it.

also how can you say rumors can not be turned into scandel but then say living together before marriage can be considered scandel because people assume two young people are having sex, even when your not? its the same exact thing. people assume one thing about you, turn it into rumors and thus create scandel.

also what is considered scandel to someone is not considered scandel to another. so people my grand parents age consider any kissing in public to be very scandelous. to avoid scandel then should we NEVER kiss anyone in public. and i am not just talking about making oput, i am talking about any kind of kissing. at what point do we consider this scandel ok and not others? since runmors can turn into scandel, its nearly impossible to avoid.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1782843' date='Feb 16 2009, 07:01 PM']i have a problem with the whole scandel aspect of it, because anything you do with the opposite sex can be considered scandel to someone. i mean if a single man has his girlfriend come over every night and even if she leaves that evening, many people will assume they are having sex since they are that age and they are alone in the apartment/house.[/quote]

This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.

Now if the man has a house, and the girlfriend comes over, there are a bunch of different things the couple can do to promote their chaste relationship:
1. If the house is two floors, and this is the evening, keep the upstairs lights off so neighbors know you are not up there but down in the kitchen.
2. During the day, if it is warm out, have lunch on the front or back porch.
3. Do not try to hide the car your s/o drove over, this may arouse suspicion.

Maybe that all sounds strict and ridiculous, but if you are concerned with scandal you can do a lot to avoid it without ruining your chaste date night.

[quote]i mean two male rommates who profess being catholic could be viewed as scandoulus if they are never seen with girlfriends because neighbors could assume they are gay and catholic.[/quote]

I hardly doubt this. In our society, stereotyping is all over the place. If the two men do not dress or "act" gay then there will be no speculation.

[havok579257]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1783446' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:35 PM']This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.

Now if the man has a house, and the girlfriend comes over, there are a bunch of different things the couple can do to promote their chaste relationship:
1. If the house is two floors, and this is the evening, keep the upstairs lights off so neighbors know you are not up there but down in the kitchen.
2. During the day, if it is warm out, have lunch on the front or back porch.
3. Do not try to hide the car your s/o drove over, this may arouse suspicion.

Maybe that all sounds strict and ridiculous, but if you are concerned with scandal you can do a lot to avoid it without ruining your chaste date night.



I hardly doubt this. In our society, stereotyping is all over the place. If the two men do not dress or "act" gay then there will be no speculation.[/quote]


that's not being strict, thats accomidating everyone else in the world before your girlfriend/boyfriend.

1. you really think because people don't see the bedroom lights on people will assume they are not having sex? they assume all young men and women are all trying to get laid.

2. should the couple have to spend every minute out side during the summer? as soon as the go inside, the rumors can start and will start if one of the neighbors does not like them. you can't get everyone to like you in this world. all it takes is one person to not like you in your neighborhood and let the rumor fly. i have seen it in every neighborhood/apaertment i have lived in since a child.

3. not hiding the car will in fact start more rumors because they always see such and such's car over at such and such's house.

4. leaving by 9-10 is still considered night time and people could still assume they are sleeping together.

5. and what if the couple works during the day? how do they accomidate this plan? do they never spend time alone?

6. The neighbors can just assume things no matter what they see. i mean how many times do we happen to see something in public and we assume something that is not true?

in this more secular society, everyone assumes everyone s out to sleep with everyone. people assume everything is about sex. so they will instanly assume a couple who is together often at each other's place are having sex. heck, rumors are started just because people don't like other's. sally can start a rumor about jill just because she doesn't like her. soon the rumor turns into fact in the public eye. i mean just look at somewhere in the inner city. let's say a young man lives in a drug ridden neighborhood. just by living in the neighborhood people will assume he is a drug dealer. the point is anything can be turned into scandel. anyone can start a rumor and it can turn into fact in the public eye.

also another example, there is a guy at my work who talks with a lisp. just due to tat everyone assumes he is gay. the problem is these assumtions have turned into fact and now people no longer think he is gay, people say they KNOW he is gay.

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']scandel can happen without rumors but it can also happen with rumors. i can be out with friends and tell them that i am pretty sure that harry and jill are sleeping together because they are always together at his place. the group of my friends then tell there friends the story but instead of saying they said I think, they say havok told me that ill and harry are sleeping together. that group of friends assumes its ok for catholics to sleep together before marriage because harry and jill do it and they are hardcore catholics. thus creating scandel.[/quote]

Yes, you are right that rumor quickly leads into scandal. That's why it's a sin.

Of course, nobody spreads rumors like a bunch of church-going Catholics. That's part of the reason I select my church-going friends more carefully than my secular friends. But I digress...

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']just about anything can be made into scandel, which is why i have a problem with us worring about it.[/quote]

There's no need to worry about it. This is simple: be responsible for yourself and for your friends. It's fine if you can go out for a few beers without going to far. If your brother can't, let him be. Refuse to think more highly of yourself or look down on him, or push him to have a few drinks when you know he won't stop.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']also how can you say rumors can not be turned into scandel but then say living together before marriage can be considered scandel because people assume two young people are having sex, even when your not? its the same exact thing. people assume one thing about you, turn it into rumors and thus create scandel.[/quote]

I never said rumors cannot be turned into scandal. They are obviously related, but they are distinct from each other and one can happen without the other. Cohabitating is simply irresponsible and unwise for anyone, especially Christians, even if it is chaste. The main reason it's irresponsible and unwise is that few cohabitating couples will remain chaste for long. The reason for this is people like to have sex, especially with people they are attracted to (i.e. the person they are dating). What part that doesn't make sense?

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783411' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:46 PM']also what is considered scandel to someone is not considered scandel to another. so people my grand parents age consider any kissing in public to be very scandelous. to avoid scandel then should we NEVER kiss anyone in public. and i am not just talking about making oput, i am talking about any kind of kissing. at what point do we consider this scandel ok and not others? since runmors can turn into scandel, its nearly impossible to avoid.[/quote]

That's a grey area... some people are more sensitive about PDA than others, and it's different among various cultures too. Use your best judgement. This is why we need to develop our conscience and grow in wisdom and virtue, and much of that involves learning from mistakes.

[Aloysius]

I suppose I'm just being ignored... the fact of the matter is that it is wrong to try out marriage while dating.

on the scandal issue, living together is inherently a sign of marriage in our culture. it is not at all unfounded to presume those living together are living in sin and everyone ought to consider an unmarried couple that lives together to be living in sin. it SHOULD be presumed, it SHOULD be discouraged; because it is a blurring of the distinction of what can be done within and without marriage, a destruction of the different state of life created by the bond of matrimony, and it creates an inherent occassion of sin for the people.

it is my opinion that priests ought to refuse to marry those who are living together unless they take a period to live seperately. in addition, I would not (unless by family obligations this would be too ridiculous) attend the marriage of two people who were living together, and I would assume it to be a sham marriage unless proven otherwise. the scandal is inherent to cohabitation; and it is NOT acceptable for Catholics to cohabitate before marriage; it is in and of itself unchaste even if there is no sexual activity whatsoever.

[Aloysius]

In any event, don't listen to me; listen to the representatives of Christ on earth. This is not a grey area that Catholics are free to disagree on, the pastors and bishops of Christ's Church have commanded against it

this is what the bishops of my part of the world have to say about it:
USCCB: [url="http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabitation.shtml"]http://www.usccb.org/laity/marriage/cohabitation.shtml[/url]
Pennsylvania: [url="http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=407"]http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resource.php?n=407[/url]

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='HisChildForever' post='1783446' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:35 PM']This sort of scandal can be avoided. If the single man lives in an apartment, having his girlfriend come over at 6pm for dinner and leave at 9-10pm (either alone or with him, perhaps out to a movie) is appropriate. If the couple is still concerned about scandal, the girlfriend should only come over in the day, say for lunch. (After all, many people associate intimacy with the evening, not the afternoon.) It [b]also[/b] depends on how the couple dresses and acts. If you see a modestly dressed couple coming and going from one party's apartment, who behaves maturely, neighbors are most likely going to assume only positive things. The couple can also invite the neighbors across the hall over for dinner. I am sure once the neighbors get to know the couple they will know nothing immoral is happening behind closed doors. They can invite neighbors to Church. etc.[/quote]

These sure are some nosy neighbors...

The issue isn't worrying about what everything we do looks like to other people. Simply be responsible and wise, looking out for yourself and others at the same time. If my neighbor asked me about what my girlfriend and I had been up to, I'd punch him in the nose sooner than I'd turn out my bedroom light.

We should also keep in mind our ages... what's acceptable for me as a 28-year-old may not be acceptable to someone in college or high school. As we grow older, we have to learn how to make right decisions without all the strict boundaries.

[quote name='havok579257' post='1783461' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:52 PM']in this more secular society, everyone assumes everyone s out to sleep with everyone. people assume everything is about sex. so they will instanly assume a couple who is together often at each other's place are having sex.[/quote]

This is where the Church, as a community of Christians, should be different from society. If it isn't, at least find a circle of Christian/Catholic friends who are actually following Christ in the way they live.

[havok579257]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1783465' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:54 PM']Yes, you are right that rumor quickly leads into scandal. That's why it's a sin.

Of course, nobody spreads rumors like a bunch of church-going Catholics. That's part of the reason I select my church-going friends more carefully than my secular friends. But I digress...



There's no need to worry about it. This is simple: be responsible for yourself and for your friends. It's fine if you can go out for a few beers without going to far. If your brother can't, let him be. Refuse to think more highly of yourself or look down on him, or push him to have a few drinks when you know he won't stop.



I never said rumors cannot be turned into scandal. They are obviously related, but they are distinct from each other and one can happen without the other. Cohabitating is simply irresponsible and unwise for anyone, especially Christians, even if it is chaste. The main reason it's irresponsible and unwise is that few cohabitating couples will remain chaste for long. The reason for this is people like to have sex, especially with people they are attracted to (i.e. the person they are dating). What part that doesn't make sense?



That's a grey area... some people are more sensitive about PDA than others, and it's different among various cultures too. Use your best judgement. This is why we need to develop our conscience and grow in wisdom and virtue, and much of that involves learning from mistakes.[/quote]


but we are not called to just avoid scandel amoung our friends. so this is where it becomes impossible to avoid scandel since secular society is not thinking along the same lines as christian scoeity.