LouisvilleFan Posted February 20, 2009 Share Posted February 20, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1785885' date='Feb 19 2009, 09:46 PM']please God don't let the West throw out Trent or the scholastics or Augustine just because the East disagrees with their formulations of things.[/quote] You don't have to worry about that. There are more subtle changes, such as the absence of the word "transubstantiation" from the current Catechism, which isn't a denial of that truth, but more a move towards emphasizing the mystery of the Eucharist. I think in our post-modern culture, that's a good idea because post-modernists don't relate with an instution that claims to understand everything down pat. We like mystery. What was that movie that came out recently... "Doubt"? Our society is questioning everything, so by shifting towards the Eastern, mystical side of Christian theology, the Church can give the faithful and curious a little room to breathe. For example, it's my impression (and maybe some of our elder and wiser phatmassers can agree/disagree) that before Vatican II, when one asked a question like, "What is the Eucharist?" or "What does Jesus mean by, 'This is my body'?" that you'd be given an definitive answer. Think of how the Baltimore Catechism being a series of questions followed by defined answers that Catholic children in the Fifties memorized. Catholics learned the "right" answers. The problem is, many weren't encountering God through the mystery of the sacraments. This is just my personal observation, but I think that problem is rooted in Western society's shift to post-modernism. At the extreme, that means there is no truth except tolerance for all beliefs. But within Catholicism, many Catholics weren't connecting with the "right" answers they memorized from the Baltimore Catechism. By instead emphasizing the mystery of Holy Communion, when someone inquires, "What does Jesus mean by, 'This is my body'?" instead of lecturing on transubstantation, we might instead encourage them to simply consider taking Jesus at his literal words and ponder the mystery of what they mean and how and why he would gives us his Body in the form of bread and wine. Through that approach, people are encouraged to have a personal encounter with Christ and the Eucharist... and that's how a convinced post-modernist becomes a convinced Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1786259' date='Feb 20 2009, 08:45 AM']You don't have to worry about that. There are more subtle changes, such as the absence of the word "transubstantiation" from the current Catechism, which isn't a denial of that truth, but more a move towards emphasizing the mystery of the Eucharist.[/quote] What Catechism have you been reading? 1413 By the consecration the [b]transubstantiation[/b] of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787510' date='Feb 21 2009, 08:45 PM']What Catechism have you been reading? 1413 By the consecration the [b]transubstantiation[/b] of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity.[/quote] Okay, guess it is in there Thought I read once that the term wasn't included, but maybe that was some other document... who knows. Details aren't my strong suit. I think the overall point I was making is still valid, if anyone wishes to comment on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I would disagree that the by explaining Transubstantiation that one is minimalizing the mystery of the most holy Sacrament. And if the Magisterium thought it did minimalize the mystery, it wouldn't continue to use it in its documents... which it has continued to do since the Council. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 "subtle" changes like that (which was proven untrue, I was pretty sure we wouldn't abandon the term "transubstantiation") are absolutely treasonous against the patrimony of our Church. we are to pass on what we have recieved. subtle moves towards Eastern theology are as bad for our Church as latinization is for the Eastern Churches. this is not to say we should not learn from Eastern perspectives, nor that we cannot tend towards Eastern positions... we can (and I sometimes do a little bit myself)... in the same way so can Eastern Catholics tend towards latin theological positions... but our core theological traditions are the heritage of the faith passed to us from our fathers and we have no right to throw it out or minimalize it in the theology that we pass down. let us pass down what we have recieved. I'd like to leave this little quote by asking a certain deceased archbishop to pray for us, but that would prove too controversial... but apparently not as controversial as Photius.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Now you think he's a Saint too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 edited because as I have said, it is not for me to say whether or not he is a saint (Apotheoun's argument that he died in communion with Rome makes me think it possible, and I do not in principal reject the authority of the Eastern Churches to glorify their own saints, though I do not consider Romans bound to consider the saints they have glorified as saints) .... if you're referring to the other person I roundaboutly mentioned, well, I'll say I certainly don't think he went anywhere where he can't pray for us, but that leaves two possible places I think he's at right now and either way, he's most poignent to my "pass down what has been recieved" shpiel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='LouisvilleFan' post='1786259' date='Feb 20 2009, 09:45 AM']For example, it's my impression (and maybe some of our elder and wiser phatmassers can agree/disagree) that before Vatican II, when one asked a question like, "What is the Eucharist?" or "What does Jesus mean by, 'This is my body'?" that you'd be given an definitive answer. Think of how the Baltimore Catechism being a series of questions followed by defined answers that Catholic children in the Fifties memorized. Catholics learned the "right" answers. The problem is, many weren't encountering God through the mystery of the sacraments. This is just my personal observation, but I think that problem is rooted in Western society's shift to post-modernism. At the extreme, that means there is no truth except tolerance for all beliefs. But within Catholicism, many Catholics weren't connecting with the "right" answers they memorized from the Baltimore Catechism. By instead emphasizing the mystery of Holy Communion, when someone inquires, "What does Jesus mean by, 'This is my body'?" instead of lecturing on transubstantation, we might instead encourage them to simply consider taking Jesus at his literal words and ponder the mystery of what they mean and how and why he would gives us his Body in the form of bread and wine. Through that approach, people are encouraged to have a personal encounter with Christ and the Eucharist... and that's how a convinced post-modernist becomes a convinced Catholic.[/quote] I disagree. My generation could at least define what the Eucharist is. Many children today cannot get past " its Jesus". Ask them how its Jesus they haven't a clue. They may have some warm fuzzy feeling, but that doesn't constitute faith. It just leaves them open to the first warm fuzzy congregation that comes along - usually a non-catholic one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Aloysius' post='1787583' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:42 PM']edited because as I have said, it is not for me to say whether or not he is a saint (Apotheoun's argument that he died in communion with Rome makes me think it possible, and I do not in principal reject the authority of the Eastern Churches to glorify their own saints, though I do not consider Romans bound to consider the saints they have glorified as saints) .... if you're referring to the other person I roundaboutly mentioned, well, I'll say I certainly don't think he went anywhere where he can't pray for us, but that leaves two possible places I think he's at right now and either way, he's most poignent to my "pass down what has been recieved" shpiel[/quote] I was referring to the Patriarch, not the Archbishop... I don't think anyone thinks the latter is a Saint haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 I'm not thoroughly convinced that that will still be the case in a hundred or two hundred years... but I should really shut up about all that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787533' date='Feb 21 2009, 09:18 PM']I would disagree that the by explaining Transubstantiation that one is minimalizing the mystery of the most holy Sacrament. And if the Magisterium thought it did minimalize the mystery, it wouldn't continue to use it in its documents... which it has continued to do since the Council.[/quote] Obviously, the doctrine of transubstantiation is true. The problems is nobody cares, thus it fails to communicate the mystery of the Eucharist to our current society which doesn't relate to defined universal truths. People convert through a personal encounter with Christ, and I think that's the value of Eastern theology in our Western society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Nobody cares? Hah. You do know that most devout Catholic today are the ones who [i]do[/i] care about what the Church teaches and thus [i]do[/i] care about transubstantiation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1787620' date='Feb 21 2009, 11:11 PM']I disagree. My generation could at least define what the Eucharist is. Many children today cannot get past " its Jesus". Ask them how its Jesus they haven't a clue. They may have some warm fuzzy feeling, but that doesn't constitute faith. It just leaves them open to the first warm fuzzy congregation that comes along - usually a non-catholic one.[/quote] That's where the prevalence of poor discipleship in modern Catholicism has failed the last couple generations. A genuine encounter with Christ is nothing like a warm, fuzzy feeling. Why do you think most Catholics abandoned that practice of memorizing definitions? I think it's because our post-modern society doesn't identify with that approach. It doesn't mean it was wrong for its time or is any less true today, but a different approach is needed today to communicate the same Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouisvilleFan Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 [quote name='Resurrexi' post='1787850' date='Feb 22 2009, 01:46 AM']Nobody cares? Hah. You do know that most devout Catholic today are the ones who [i]do[/i] care about what the Church teaches and thus [i]do[/i] care about transubstantiation?[/quote] Yes, and we are a minority even within our own faith, and in society at large we usually find more friends among Evangelicals than fellow Catholics. I care about these things too, but I look around me and see a lot of people who aren't connecting with it and I can't help but wonder why that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Resurrexi Posted February 22, 2009 Share Posted February 22, 2009 Most Catholics I know are perfectly aware of Transubstantiation... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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