The Holy Roman Empire

[Aloysius]

Okay, so I believe that the Holy Roman Empire ought to be re-established as a type of super-national body akin to the UN, except as a specifically Catholic body... the secular arm of Christendom. It would not claim borders, simply claim influence over the whole world's Catholics in secular matters; it could even raise armies akin to the UN peacekeeper force and maybe even lend itself to such causes of peacekeeping done by the international community as it sees fit.

As I understand it, the only electors left for the Holy Roman Emporer are the three ecclesiastical electors (I could not find even any pretenders to the four secular electors): The Bishop of Mainz, The Archbishop of Cologne, and the Bishop of Trier. These three could be the ecclesiastical electors... perhaps a new order of Catholic royalty could be established as the new secular electors.

I believe such a body could be a major force for peace in the world. Moreover, it would establish in the secular order a power with influence over the whole world (though it would not directly rule the world, simply be a secular influence) which directly acknowledges the Reign of Christ the King. Christendom would exist again as a sort of international policy consulting body; they should have ambassadors and diplomats, a seat at the UN (not just an observer, perhaps) et cetera; and seeing as the secular states are getting more and more bold in their attacks against the Church, having a secular right arm for the Church to defend herself if, say, the International Criminal Court wants again to try the Pope for crimes against human rights in teachings on homosexuality and abortion and this time won't take no for an answer, he could be defended. Not that it'd be going to war all the time, but the threat that Catholics COULD be organized into a military power of Christendom if necessary against oppressors might stave them off a little bit.

what say you?

[Nihil Obstat]

OmGzorZZ~!!!! Catholicz trieing to taek over teh world aGAIN~!!!~!!!11! One world orderzz! Evilllll!

The Muslims would likely want one too, and it certainly would have the potential to lead to a new sort of holy war.
...but in principle I like it.

[kenrockthefirst]

The Holy Roman Empire was, of course, predicated first on military power and second on political authority. Without those two things, all you have is a talking shop. That's not necessarily a bad thing but it's not an empire.

Ultimately, Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world.

[Justified Saint]

Using the failures of past entities is usually not a good model for future success.

[Aloysius]

it would be no different than how the monarchies of Europe gave way to constitutions which all but took away their direct power; if there can be a King Juan Carlos of Spain or a Queen Elizabeth of England, there can be a Holy Roman Emporer who claims authority over the world recognized or not; who exists as a strong influential force for peace in the world. it should raise a military power as a theoretical possible peacekeeping force or a force to defend Christians should nation-states become oppressive... it would be an Empire which had some small military power and a great deal of influence over all the nations due to its influence over the Catholics in those nations. it may be in a sense "Empire" in name only, but there'd be real aspects of imperical nature in the influence it would at least attempt to exert over the nations of former Christendom.

The Holy Roman Empire is not a failure as a past entity, it's a past entity that eventually dissolved; re-establishing it would be good because at one time it was a good thing in the world... the fact that it fell apart doesn't mean it shouldn't have been together nor that it shouldn't be put back together in a different form but in continuity with all that was good about the old form.

[Aloysius]

another thing to consider is that the current economic crisis is starting to make more and more plausible the possibility of huge societal collapse; if the Church had a powerful secular arm, she could help to keep stability were the secular world to crumble... a Holy Roman Emporer would be a huge help in a Europe where worse riots than those that rocked the Greek government recently started really destabalizing the governments of Europe.

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1783390' date='Feb 17 2009, 12:13 PM']it would be no different than how the monarchies of Europe gave way to constitutions which all but took away their direct power; if there can be a King Juan Carlos of Spain or a Queen Elizabeth of England, there can be a Holy Roman Emporer who claims authority over the world recognized or not; who exists as a strong influential force for peace in the world. it should raise a military power as a theoretical possible peacekeeping force or a force to defend Christians should nation-states become oppressive... it would be an Empire which had some small military power and a great deal of influence over all the nations due to its influence over the Catholics in those nations. it may be in a sense "Empire" in name only, but there'd be real aspects of imperical nature in the influence it would at least attempt to exert over the nations of former Christendom.

The Holy Roman Empire is not a failure as a past entity, it's a past entity that eventually dissolved; re-establishing it would be good because at one time it was a good thing in the world... the fact that it fell apart doesn't mean it shouldn't have been together nor that it shouldn't be put back together in a different form but in continuity with all that was good about the old form.[/quote]
Where would the Imperial Court be based? Aachen? I'm not sure that the Dutch would go for that. From where would its military force be recruited? Where based? How trained and equipped? What would make a Holy Roman Emperor any more influential over Catholics than the Pope?

[Aloysius]

he shouldn't be more influential than the pope... his level of influence over Catholics would be analagous to the Pope's influence, except it would be on secular matters.

I am unsure where they would center the court, but it would probably not be too much of a problem to find a place to center the court if it had enough financial support.

any military order would be open to be joined by any Catholic; an all volunteer type deal. this would be the most problematic thing to establish as forming militias is generally frowned upon within the borders of most nations, but I do not see it as impossible that places could be established where such small armies could be trained.

[CatherineM]

There is already a core of Catholic royalty and nobility around. Many, if not most, carry their titles in name only now, and would probably be open to joining something like this. Many of them have the money to raise private armies in the same way they did 1000 years ago. The Swiss Guard could handle setting up the training.

[Nihil Obstat]

Where would it take place?
Many nations would be leery about letting a different army train on their soil, and Vatican City isn't large enough.

[CatherineM]

A lot of these nobles still have large estates.

[cmotherofpirl]

So somebody has been reading his eschatology stuff again?

[Aloysius]

actually, I'm not suggesting this in any eschatological way whatsoever... whether or not the end of the end times is imminent, I think a body like this is a good idea to exist as a sort of ghost of old Christendom

[kenrockthefirst]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1783454' date='Feb 17 2009, 01:45 PM']actually, I'm not suggesting this in any eschatological way whatsoever... whether or not the end of the end times is imminent, I think a body like this is a good idea to exist as a sort of ghost of old Christendom[/quote]
And therein lies the rub. Old Christendom doesn't exist anymore, obviously. But beyond that, Europe is essentially a post-Christian civilization, even those countries that are nominally majority Catholic, e.g. Spain, France, Ireland, Italy. I think that our efforts would be better spent trying to be salt and light in the circumstances in which we find ourselves rather than trying to relive the "good old days."

[Aloysius]

we ought to always and everywhere work to make the Reign of Christ the King recognized by every state; so long as Western Civilization still has Catholics, she still ought to have a secular power of Christendom, she still ought to have secular power which submits to Christ as King over every state.

I don't see how one could consider my proposal "reliving the good old days"; the suggestion is to re-vive and update the old structures as the best guarantee of Christendom and of peace in the world.

[CatherineM]

It's not trying to relive the good old days when we try to reclaim a part of our past that was good, or a good example to live up to. For example, when the Army first began helicopter divisions, they asked permission to name them Air Cavalry. Besides the fact that they would function in modern warfare the way that the mounted cavalry had in older warfare, it was a way of bringing that tradition into a new unit.

In case you haven't noticed, real Christianity is being ostracized, marginalized, and eventually may be practically ghettoized or branded a hate group. There are presently two orders of Chivalry recognized by the Vatican, the Sovereign Military Hospitaller Order of Malta, and Equestrian Order of the Holy Sepulcher. Think of the Knights of Columbus, but directly under Papal Protection. The first one is already a UN observer organization, I think. All we need to do is take them from the Equivalent of Boy Scouts, to Police Explorer Scouts.

[Nihil Obstat]

What about my point though;
as soon as something like this gets set up, I'll bet anything that first Islam will claim the same right, then some kind of humanist association. Soon enough it would turn into a sort of cold war, or at least would have the potential to.

[Aloysius]

I'm not sure that would happen; the islamicists have their terrorist organizations and the ordinary muslims have their muslim states, and the secular humanists have the governments of most of the Western World. the secular humanists have the UN itself, actually. they already have these structures; we'd just be establishing a structure which was a secular power for Christendom itself, which exists now as a sort of minority in its own homeland (or at least as a disenfranchised majority) of Europe and the rest of Western Civilization.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Aloysius' post='1783824' date='Feb 17 2009, 05:49 PM']I'm not sure that would happen; the islamicists have their terrorist organizations and the ordinary muslims have their muslim states, and the secular humanists have the governments of most of the Western World. the secular humanists have the UN itself, actually. they already have these structures; we'd just be establishing a structure which was a secular power for Christendom itself, which exists now as a sort of minority in its own homeland (or at least as a disenfranchised majority) of Europe and the rest of Western Civilization.[/quote]
Yea, we see it that way, but the atheists especially don't see themselves as having an authoritative secular organization. They still pretend to view themselves as a persecuted minority.
We see them as already having equivalents, but I don't think they'd be quite inclined to look at it our way.

[aalpha1989]

I don't think world governments would be too keen on Catholic "peace-keeping forces" in their countries. UN peace keeping forces are a joke. I think the creation of a "Catholic UN" would only give the Church a bad name. Bureaucracy would get in the way of any real decisions, and political correctness would infect it just as pcness infects the UN. The purpose of the Church is spiritual, and I really believe that it would be viewed more as a political entity if this were to happen. We are past the point when a Catholic political entity can have any real influence on an international level- we would only be vilified.

We need to work on a national basis before we can be effective on an international basis.