Are Catholics Going Nuts?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1789040' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:38 AM']I am very aware of Archbishop Burke's opinion on the matter and he is entitled to it... I agree with him in many respects. The fact remains that his opinion was binding only in St. Louis when he was ordinary there and while he certainly occupies high office now and hopefully will get a red hat, he still does not really have any authority over bishops' pastoral choices in their own dioceses in this matter. His words do not make universal law. His interpretation of canon law is learned but it is one interpretation among many, it seems.

Archbishop Burke is not "exactly small fry," true, but neither is the pope. What I meant to imply was that I am certain Archbishop Burke does not mean to scold the Holy Father for his application of canon law. I'm pretty sure the archbishop does not have a problem with the Pope. It amazes me how people will seize on the ideas of one single man like the archbishop for ammunition in this debate, even to the point of misunderstanding the role of the Apostolic Signatura! Deciding who gets Communion is not part of their job, either! The Apostolic Signatura is a court of appeals. The handle administrative questions, appeals from the Rota, conflicts of jurisdiction etc. Absolutely nothing to do with and no authority over the Communion issue.

We can all read what Archbishop Burke says but we can all see what the Holy Father does, and the two do not match up.

The petition doesn't mean that Catholics are "going nuts" so to speak - but it is a huge waste of time and therefore easy to dismiss. It will not accomplish anything besides using up some space on the Internet. Not to mention, things like this are symptomatic of big problems with authority roiling just beneath the surface on both the right wing and the left wing, both of which see themselves as representing "pure" Catholicism against the compromising, weak-willed powers that be. Both liberal and conservative laymen think they own the Church and should get to call the shots! Hence the ™. When in fact She belongs to Jesus, not to them. And Jesus gave us bishops. Increasingly the laity see themselves as the arbiters of discipline, doctrine, etc. where once this was recognized as the competence of the authorities Jesus chose. Not a good trend.[/quote]

What part of this did you miss?
Canon 212 states that the Catholic faithful have "..the right, indeed at times the duty, in keeping with their knowledge, competence and position, to manifest to the sacred Pastors their views on matters which concern the good of the Church."
And please don't go on about knowledge, competance and position - the definition of scandal is not exactly rocket science. Watching pro-death catholics line up for Communion is a scandal.

[Slappo]

I'm a member of the public, and I am scandalized by not only the actions of Pelosi et al, but by the Bishops who continue to allow public scandal in their dioceses.

I am scandalized that bishops continue to allow those who publicly seek to increase the number of deaths of the innocent to receive our Lord Jesus Christ in the Blessed Sacrament. Christ humbled himself to such a degree that it is now the role of the Church in a way to defend the Eucharist from abuse, and members of Holy Mother Church are failing in successfully doing so.

[Maggyie]

What can I say? Obviously no one is going to budge on this issue. All I can say is that if it's the Pope vs. a horde of know-it-all [i]liberal [/i]laymen who want their way, I'm going to side with the Pope. If it's the Pope vs. a horde of know-it-all [i]conservative [/i]laymen who want their way, I'm going to side with the Pope. There is nothing at all about the Holy Father's ministry that I find scandalous and I am surprised that people think Benedict is causing scandal. I don't understand why he gives Communion to people like Nancy Pelosi but he does. In public. On multiple occasions. Without one word of public rebuke for them, before or after. And I think he has more understanding of the situation than all of us on Phatmass combined. So while I admit to being puzzled by the Holy Father's actions, that's more my problem than his. Why are Catholics always so eager to be "more Catholic than the pope"?

So, I will give you "knowledge," in that if it causes some Christians scandal, we know it is probably bad. But again, [i]competence [/i]and [i]position[/i]. The fact remains that it [i]is not our role as laymen to determine who is worthy to receive Communion[/i]. It just. Is. Not. Never has been. [i]Ever[/i]. Have you ever noticed how no bishop sidles up to you and asks your opinion on this? They don't ever ask me, either. That's because they don't NEED our opinions to figure this one out. They don't need to take a poll. It doesn't work to present a petition. These are the successors of the apostles we are talking about. If they made pastoral decisions based on petitions, the Church would be in terrible trouble.

Most bishops' decisions on this (including THE POPE'S) are different from what I would do but, hey, there's probably a reason I'm not a bishop...

[Nunsense]

I don't know how we Catholics can expect our non-Catholic families to understand why we are so anti-abortion when our Church allows people like Nancy Pelosi to receive Communion despite her pro-abortion stance. Yes, it is a scandal to me too, and I wish her Bishop would take some positive action to let her know that she is not in Communion with the Church, and therefore not allowed to receive Communion!

I support our Bishops, but I really wish they would all have the courage to carry out their duties according to God's law - and not worry about the fallout from it. There is more scandal in doing nothing in this case (my humble opinion).

[Lil Red]

+J.M.J.+
here's his follow-up column about Pelosi and the Pope's meeting.
[url="http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/pelosi-aand-church.html"]http://abbey-roads.blogspot.com/2009/02/pe...and-church.html[/url]
i'm excerpting what i think are relevant parts:
[quote]Nevertheless, the controversy over the reception of the Eucharist must be addressed, and finally settled, by her bishop and/or the bishops of the United States, who can then instruct their priests. It is my understanding, as things stand now, any priest or deacon can, may, maybe should, deny communion to any notorious public sinner to prevent scandal. Although one problem I see with lay extraordinary ministers of the sacrament is that they have no competence to arbitrarily deny communion on their own. (Yes, that's right - I do not like the use of lay people to distribute communion at Mass - taking it to the sick is another matter entirely. But I digress.)[/quote]

[quote]One hopes the Archbishop will work together with the other U.S. bishops to make a definitive statement and require pastors to enforce the decision.[/quote](speaking of Archbishop Burke)

[quote]I may be wrong, but I have to wonder if the bishops are a little too permissive and perhaps a bit too concerned about public opinion when it comes to political figures and unpopular issues? They sometimes come across as rather weak-willed, and seem to rely too heavily upon a secular notion of diplomacy, scared to death they might scare away unfaithful Catholics if they assert Catholic teaching. I'm not suggesting priests and bishops start screaming hell and brimstone threats to the miscreants, but they need to say something definitive. Right now it appears there is an exaggerated concern for human respect (political correctness) on the part of more than a few churchmen, which only retards action, as well as undermines the credibility and authority of Catholic teaching. We have arrived at a point where laicism has become dogma in the American mentality, to such an extent even self-proclaimed "ardent" Catholics in government feel free to legislate immorality in defiance of Church teaching and natural law.[/quote]

[thessalonian]

The Pope has never given pelosi communion. She recieved it while he was here in April but he wasn't the minister. He has expressed what Canon Law makes clear.

[Maggyie]

[quote name='thessalonian' post='1789544' date='Feb 23 2009, 06:03 PM']The Pope has never given pelosi communion. She recieved it while he was here in April but he wasn't the minister. He has expressed what Canon Law makes clear.[/quote]

The Pope has on multiple occasions given politicians of Pelosi's stripe communion. (the mayor of Rome for instance). John Paul II did it, too, repeatedly.

Edited February 23, 2009 by Maggie

[Socrates]

[quote name='Maggie' post='1789040' date='Feb 23 2009, 12:38 AM']I am very aware of Archbishop Burke's opinion on the matter and he is entitled to it... I agree with him in many respects. The fact remains that his opinion was binding only in St. Louis when he was ordinary there and while he certainly occupies high office now and hopefully will get a red hat, he still does not really have any authority over bishops' pastoral choices in their own dioceses in this matter. His words do not make universal law. His interpretation of canon law is learned but it is one interpretation among many, it seems.

Archbishop Burke is not "exactly small fry," true, but neither is the pope. What I meant to imply was that I am certain Archbishop Burke does not mean to scold the Holy Father for his application of canon law. I'm pretty sure the archbishop does not have a problem with the Pope. It amazes me how people will seize on the ideas of one single man like the archbishop for ammunition in this debate, even to the point of misunderstanding the role of the Apostolic Signatura! Deciding who gets Communion is not part of their job, either! The Apostolic Signatura is a court of appeals. The handle administrative questions, appeals from the Rota, conflicts of jurisdiction etc. Absolutely nothing to do with and no authority over the Communion issue.[/quote]
I was not saying that Archbishop Burke's statements on this matter were binding or universal Church law, simply pointing out that he is a clergyman of very high standing in the Church, and, having been entrusted with the position of head of the Apostolic Signatura, is surely very competent in matters of canon law and such.
The fact he clearly agrees with the signers of the pettion regarding giving Communion to unrepentantly pro-abortion politicians shows that such a position cannot be simply dismissed as merely the ill-informed or ignorant opinion of incompetent laymen.

And even a quick reading of his statements stated in that article show that he in fact does have a problem with other bishops individually deciding to not follow the CDF's instructions regarding denying Communion to pro-abort pols, showing your earlier statement that "I am positive that Archbishop Burke has no problem with them doing that" is not based in the facts.


[quote]We can all read what Archbishop Burke says but we can all see what the Holy Father does, and the two do not match up.[/quote]
Wrong.
First of all, what the Pope personally [i]does[/i] is actually not directly relevant to this debate. The Pope's actions are not impeccable.
It's what the Pope teaches that's important.
And the policies he himself clearly laid down as Prefect of the CDF, which you yourself (as well as Archbishop Burke) admitted were clear and unambiguous, are what is important here.
The Pope has [i]nowhere[/i] declared that these rules no longer apply, or are mere optional guidelines to be disregarded if one sees fit.

You will also note that the duties concerning Communion and publicly pro-abortion politicians
are given to the pastor of the politician in question, and are two-fold: 1) first personally counsel the politician regarding his position, and warning him that he may bot receive Communion 2) if after counsel he persists, to deny him communion.
There's probably no way for the Pope to know with certainty if the first step has been performed with every politician coming to a papal mass.
And I think we can rest assured he will [i]not [/i]be giving Pelosi Communion after their one-on-one meeting (unless she publicly repents of her "pro-choice" stance).

In any case, the Pope has said absolutely nothing to the effect that the rules concerning pro-abortion politicians receiving communion are optional, nor has he said anything contradicting Archbishop's Burke's statements.

And until he does, you really have no solid basis for claiming the Pope disagrees with Burke, etc., or that those who take this position are at odds with the Pope.
Presenting this as a matter of "the Pope vs. a horde of know-it-all conservative laymen" or "the Pope vs. Archbishop's Burke" is simply false and unfounded.

[quote]The petition doesn't mean that Catholics are "going nuts" so to speak - but it is a huge waste of time and therefore easy to dismiss. It will not accomplish anything besides using up some space on the Internet. Not to mention, things like this are symptomatic of big problems with authority roiling just beneath the surface on both the right wing and the left wing, both of which see themselves as representing "pure" Catholicism against the compromising, weak-willed powers that be. Both liberal and conservative laymen think they own the Church and should get to call the shots! Hence the ™. When in fact She belongs to Jesus, not to them. And Jesus gave us bishops. Increasingly the laity see themselves as the arbiters of discipline, doctrine, etc. where once this was recognized as the competence of the authorities Jesus chose. Not a good trend.[/quote]
If signing the petition is such a "huge waste of time," think of how much more time you have wasted attacking those who sign it.

And your statements on this essentially make Canon 212 S3 out to be null and void.
The idea that all decisions of bishops are somehow above any and all comment and criticism form the laity is baloney. Bishops can and do make bad decisions - and when they lead to grave public scandal, they can be disastrous for the Church. Witness the horrific scandal caused by the decision of certain bishops to cover up and shuffle around pederast priests. The idea that the actions of bishops are always above and beyond any criticism or lay knowledge is not always for the best.
The scandal caused by the blasphemy of politicians cynically using the Holy Sacrament as a photo-op to win the "Catholic vote" is another serious scandal which the bishops should act correctly on.

And this constant babbling about "conservative," "liberal," "right-wing," "left-wing" is pointless. This is not about partisan politics, but about putting an end to a scandal which causes damage to the whole Church. For the record, I think this policy should apply just as much to "pro-choice Catholic" Republican pols (even if otherwise "conservative") as to Dems.

But really, I think I've said all that needs to be said; unless some new point is brought up, this debate seems to be going in circles.

Edited February 24, 2009 by Socrates