The Catholic Faith

[Brother Adam]

Why should we become Catholic?

[phatcatholic]

adam,

just a quick note to let you know that i haven't forgotten about you. i won't be able to respond over the weekend b/c i'll be spending time w/ my family and working on homework. but, i hope to answer your question early in the week when i return to school (sunday, monday, or tuesday).

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 25 2004, 08:56 PM'] Why should we become Catholic? [/quote]
bro adam,

i have really been struggling with how to respond to this question, not because the answers are not abundant, but because it is hard to articulate into words the love i have for Jesus Christ and His Church. plus, i don't want this to just be a list of the usual stereotypical responses. i want this to come from my heart; i feel like you will appreciate that the most. i guess the best way for me to do that is to just tell you what the Catholic Church means to me. you can glean from that the reasons to be Catholic.

to me, the catholic church means....

[b]1. [/b][b]a mother [/b]who loves me so much, that any words used to describe it are incomprehensably inadequate. this is a love indescribable, a love for the body of Christ, typified in the love that Mary has for THE body of Christ. notice in The Passion of the Christ, how she runs to Him, how she longs to take all of his pain away. she just loves Him so much. we are the child in the flashback, we are the Body of Christ, who stumble and fall. yet we have a mother who is always there, who will wipe away our tears and set us back upon the path to righteousness.

[b]2. [/b][b]a Blessed Mother[/b], a Mother of perfect piety and purity, a Mother who looks upon us, lowly and broken in this valley of tears, and brings our heartfelt cries to the Lord. She is the Mother to the motherless, to the abandoned, to the homeless, to desperate and the heartbroken. She is there, caring for us, unceasing in her love and affection. Oh Blessed Mother and Immaculate Queen of Heaven, pray for us!!

[b]3. a father[/b], a priest, my guardian, my shephard, who loves me as his son. a man who has given himself to the Lord to be an instrument of forgivness and sacrifice. "bless me father, for i have sinned." humbled and humiliated i come before him. yet he is not rebuking, not horrified, not aggravated or apathetic. he is loving, understanding, forgiving. it has made his day that i have come to him, and sought that the Holy Father should work through him in reconciling me to Himself. before i leave the confessional, and walk back into the harsh, cruel world he hugs me and assures me that he is always there for me, just as our Holy Father in heaven is forever at our side.

[b]4. grace unabounding[/b], grace that pours forth like water, that cleanses us and unites us to Christ Jesus. [b]grace from baptism[/b], which wipes away all impurities, that seals us w/ the indelible mark of the Holy Spirit and makes us a new creation, a child of God, a member of His Holy Family.

[b]grace from confession[/b], the Lords merciful forgiveness that lifts every burden, that reconciles us w/ God and man, grace available to every wicked man who ever walked this Earth.

[b]grace from the Real Presence [/b]of Jesus Christ, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. grace that fills us, so that we hunger and thirst no more. grace that unites us to the one sacrifice for all mankind, for every generation, until the end of time.

[b]grace from confirmation[/b], grace that fits us w/ the armor of God, with which we are protected for the good fight. together w/ the mighty archangels we wage the war against evil and set ourselves apart as sons and daughter of God, and warriors for Christ.

[b]grace from matrimony[/b], grace through which two become one flesh and share in God's role as Creator and Sustainer of Life, grace through which two people call to mind the perfect love that exists between the persons of the Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, grace through which man and woman work to aid and protect and guide each other to eternal bliss in heaven.

[b]grace from Holy Orders[/b], in which men, who are called to be set apart for the Lord and servants of His Church, are given power and authority by the Holy Spirit to stand in the person of Christ, to appropriate His unending blessings to His children, to celebrate the perfect Sacrifice of the Mass, to live a life singularly devoted to the work of God on this Earth.

[b]grace from the Anointing of the Sick[/b], grace that strengthens us in our final hours, when we are inundated with fear and despair, grace that comforts us when we need it the most, grace that prepares our souls to be with God, and heals ever infirmity if it is His Perfect Will.

[b]grace, everywhere and all around me[/b], grace to cleans me, grace to forgive me, grace to feed me, grace to arm and protect me, grace to love me, grace to make me a man set apart, grace to strengthen me until my final breath, grace that pushes me, guides me, points me in the right direction. without it i would be lost. i would be dead.

[b]5. truth[/b], perfect and unadulterated. the spirit of truth that casts our fear, protected by the Holy Spirit and the Real Presence of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. truth incorruptable, impervious to the scandal and the imperfection of men. truth, that sure guide and only way towards perfection in Christ Jesus. truth that never contradicts itself, truth that never lies, truth set on a pedastle and of which there is only one.

[b]6. One body[/b], united in One profession of faith, in One sacrifice of the Holy Mass, in perfect Communion, in One shepherd on Earth, One Vicar of Christ, One Rock, One sure foundation, One Church, One Body of Christ, One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit that is through all and in all.

[b]7. a Holy Body[/b], empowered by the Holy Spirit, filled with Grace, made Holy by the appropriation of this grace through the Seven Sacraments, glorified by the Saints, that clowd of witnesses who have come before us and show us what it is to be Holy, to glorify the Lord and his Church through every word and action. a Holy Body, a spotless lamb, a perfect sacrifice brought before the Lord.

[b]8. a Catholic Body[/b], a people everwhere, spreading the word of God and making disciples of all nations, feeding the poor, providing clothing and shelter for the homeless, nursing the sick, protecting the neglected and abused, everwhere and to everyone saying, "here you have a home." a Catholic Body, universal yet visible, hierarchical, with bishops, priests, and deacons, a body set apart from all others, a body of which the earliest christians provide witness, the only body that deserves the title "Catholic"

[b]9. an Apostolic Body[/b], sprung from the 12 apostles themselves, a body w/ a perfect line of succession, a body which continuously perpetuates the power, authority, and teaching of the first followers of Jesus, and of Jesus Christ himself. a body for which martyrs have died, and the greatest apologists and theologians in all of christianity have given witness, perfect unity with the One True Church, Christ's Church, from the VERY beginning, a claim that no other Church would dare to make or ever substantiate.

[b]10. the communion of saints[/b], those witnesses in the stands who cheer for me as i run the race, as i work out my salvation w/ fear and trembling. saints, made perfect by the saving grace of Jesus Christ, who live in the presence of the Beatific Vision, who are alive in Christ, who have fought the good fight and finished victorious, who know my trials b/c they have lived them to. saints, our holy brothers and sisters in Christ, who bring rightious prayers to the Lord on our behalf and plead that we may be showered with grace.

[b]11. resiliency[/b], the longest-lasting institution on the face of the planet, the Church that will never fall, never be defeated, never be corrupted, never be overcome, never be overcome by the gates of hell, by the devil and his minions, by the sinfulness of man, and every force that is brought against it. Resilient, finding redemption through suffering, growth in times of scandal, light where there is darkness, healing where there is pain, lifting every burden and healing all wounds. Resilient, One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic until the end of time. The Last Man Standing.

[b]12. ST. MICHAEL[/b], captain bad-ass, mr. who's-your-daddy, mr. "WHO-IS-LIKE-CHRIST!?!?, mr. bring it on, mr. you-cant-hold-me, mr. foot-on-your-face, mr. don't-make-me-use-my-sword, mr. get-the-hell-outta-here, mr. the-devil-aint-shinobi, the Prince of Heavenly Host, our defender in battle, our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil, the ultimate warror, the soldier of Christ, our bodyguard from temptation and sin, the protector of the Church and enemy of the Devil. st. michael, the archangel, pray for us!!

[b]13. only the Catholic Church can and does make such lofty claims[/b]. its the only Church that claims to be the One Church of Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic--and can prove it. its the only Church that can say it came BEFORE the Bible--and can prove it. its the only Church that claims to be infallible in matters of doctrine and morals--and can prove it. its the only Church that claims direct succession from the Apostles and Jesus Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that gives Her believers SEVEN SURE WAYS to receive the grace of Jesus Christ--and can prove it. its the only Church that shows the Blessed Mother of Jesus Christ that honor and reverence that she rightly deserves.

you know, as i re-read my response, i despair over how supremely inadequate it is. uggh! i think i could re-write and revise this 100 times and never be happy with it. i hope this is what you are looking for, and i am sorry if it is not. actually, a part of me fears that it will turn you away, as my zeal has done so often in the past. i am remined of my ex-girlfriend, and how my response to the same question by her actually destroyed all hope of her becoming catholic. however, i must remind myself that it is not all my fault that she has decided to reject catholicism, and it is equally prideful of me to assume that your initiation into the Church hinges upon my response here.

so, there's my answer. it is what it is.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

ps: here's some articles that articulate why other people have chosen to be Catholic:
[b]--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ107.HTM"]Conversion to Catholicism: General Observations[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ439.HTM"]Catholic Mariology, Authority, and Other Qualms of Protestants Considering Conversion[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ177.HTM"]Reasons for Leaving and Joining the Catholic Church[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ103.HTM"]150 Reasons Why I Am Catholic[/url][/b]
--for an immense collection of conversion stories, go [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ390.HTM"][b]here[/b][/url] or [url="http://www.chnetwork.org/"][b]here[/b][/url]

Edited March 29, 2004 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

bump....................just to get us back on the first page again

take your time bro. i look forward to hearing from you.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

bump.......................cause can't nobody hold us down!

[Brother Adam]

I've been reading and thinking about it. You don't have to bump bro

Thank you. I know that came from the heart.


What don't you like about the Catholic Church or anything in it?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Mar 31 2004, 03:14 PM'] What don't you like about the Catholic Church or anything in it? [/quote]
i would have to say that the thing i dislike the most about the Church are those within it who do not live their faith, respect their faith, or attempt to learn about their faith.

[b]LIBERAL CATHOLICS[/b]

this seems to be the most prevalent among "liberal" catholics. well, let me start out by saying that liberalism in general irritates me, let alone christian liberalism. that entire mindset is just simply not what the Church is all about!! i wish that they would see how much they degrade and wound the church w/ this agenda. here's some of the carp i hear that really makes me want to shake people:

--women should be allowed to be priests
--priests should be allowed to marry
--there's too many rules and regulations
--mass is too boring
--the church is behind the times
--i don't like mass b/c i don't feel the spirit moving there
--i don't agree w/ having some pope telling me what to believe
--abstinence before marriage is stupid. what if i love my boyfriend?
--its a woman's choice whether or not she wants to abort her baby
--rapists should be put in the electric chair so that the victim can have revenge
--i don't go to confession, its too embarrasing. i can confess to God anyway
--it doesn't really matter what church you go to, as long as u love Jesus
--the pope is too old, he needs to retire

uugghhh! i can't describe how much this stuff gets to me. open a freakin book, for the love of God! learn about your religion before you share you ridiculous, uneducated opinions w/ everyone. quit speaking against something b/c it just doesn't feel right, or b/c it messes up the nice little plans you had for your life. this big crusade for a female priesthood is utterly ignorant. i mean, how obvious does it have to be that the matter is closed? the pope could not agree w/ that even if he wanted to. THE SPIRIT WILL NOT ALLOW!

[b]LUKE-WARM CATHOLICS[/b]

ya know, its not even the ignorance that bothers me the most (although that reeeeally bothers me), its the fact that these people are a lousy example of the Church i love w/ all my heart. they DISGRACE HER w/ every word and action, and it just makes me want to draw my freakin sword. the single most important way to witness to someone is through your ACTIONS. but, what is a protestant to think when he sees the neighborhood catholic getting drunk every night, not going to mass on sunday, not praying before meals, not fasting during lent, not reading the bible, and basically walking around like a dribbling idiot? most likely, that protestant is going to think, "well, that's the Catholic Church for ya, just a big impersonal organization that doesn't teach its believers how to love Jesus and have a personal relationship w/ him."

LIVE YOUR FAITH! READ THE BIBLE! GO TO MASS!!!!!! there's so many catholics on my campus who could really care less about their faith. this troubles me immensely. i just can't stand to have these people representing my Church. i just want to be like, "go join the Jesus Seminar and get the hell outta here if you're not going to respect God's Church."

[b]DISRESPECTFUL CATHOLICS[/b]

some catholics are not just negligent, they are straight-up disrespectful!

--cussing during mass
--telling jokes and punching each other during mass
--tickling each other on the way to receive the eucharist
--giving a quick spasm-of-a-genuflection (if they genuflect or bow their head at all) before recieving the eucharist
--leaving immediately after communion
--socializing in the church after mass, instead of leaving the building w/ reverence
--dissing vatican II
--sitting on the pew instead of kneeling b/c "it hurts my back too much."
--not bothering to participate in the mass, no singing or responding or praying

i just wanna be like, "DON'T YOU KNOW WHAT THIS IS!?!? this is the sacrifice of the mass! this is the body, blood, soul, and divinity of Jesus Christ!! this is one sacrifice for all mankind!! this is the greatest, most sacred, spiritual, mystical, mysterious, awesome, glorifying, grace-filling, SPIRIT-MOVING event that you will ever witness on Earth. RESPECT OUR GOD! RESPECT OUR CHURCH!

i'm tired of apathy, relativism, liberalism, denominationalism, disunity, disrespect, ignorance, sloth, and just general disregard for the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC, and APOSTOLIC Church.

THAT's what i dislike. thanks for letting me vent.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

1. Are laity encouraged to meet with clergy to discuss how they can better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events? If I became Catholic I would be looking to serve in a fashion to help better educate Catholics what it means to be Catholic. To begin programs aimed at eliminating the millions of American Catholics who though have had years of CCD classes think things like contraception and abortion are perfectly okay. Catholics tend to get a very bad rap just because there are so many Catholics who live very worldly lives. Due to this most protestants assume that Catholics do not have a relationship with the Lord. Perhaps it even may be that many don't.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 2 2004, 01:39 PM'] 1. Are laity encouraged to meet with clergy to discuss how they can better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events? [/quote]
the laity aren't specifically encouraged to meet w/ clergy, per se, but anyone can meet w/ a priest if they want to. priests and other religious are there for the Church. they serve the people as well as their God.

that said, catholics ARE encouraged to "better educate Catholics through classes, social reform, and outreach events." this afterall is one of the fundamental intentions of the sacrament of confirmation. through this sacrament, the faithful recieve an indelible mark of the Holy Spirit that equips and prepares them to step out into the world and defend the faith, to Catholics and non-Catholic alike. PJII and his "New Evanglization" has placed particular emphasis on this as the responsiblility of [i][b]every catholic[/b][/i]. plus, it has long been understood by the Church that orthopraxy (right practice) is just as essential as orthodoxy (right belief). both are critical aspects of our witness to this faith that we hold so dear. in the words of the Church's first pope:

--Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a [b][i]reason[/i][/b] for your hope, but do it with gentleness and reverence, keeping your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned, those who defame your [b][i]good conduct[/i][/b] in Christ may themselves be puot to shame. ([b]1 Pet. 3:15[/b])

[quote]If I became Catholic I would be looking to serve in a fashion to help better educate Catholics what it means to be Catholic. To begin programs aimed at eliminating the millions of American Catholics who though have had years of CCD classes think things like contraception and abortion are perfectly okay.[/quote]

first, one small correction. it is my understanding that CCD is primarily for those who wish to become catholic, and usually only lasts a year or two. any "years of instruction" that a born-and-raised catholic would recieve usually come through going to catholic schools, or homeschooling.

that said, the church would encourage and applaud such efforts on your part, and there are many ways in which these goals can be achieved. you could:

--be a youth group leader
--be a young adult group leader
--lead a bible study
--lead an organized discussion on the early church fathers or sacred tradition
--be a guest speaker (like the more credentialed and established apologists)
--make your own website to defend the faith (as you are already doing)
--publish tracts that defend the faith and place them in church buildings
--teach summer programs
--be a camp counselor or participate in catholic spiritual retreats
--LIVE YOUR FAITH

all of these opportunities are available to you, and are already being utilized by thousands (millions?) of catholics everywhere.

[quote]Catholics tend to get a very bad rap just because there are so many Catholics who live very worldly lives. Due to this most protestants assume that Catholics do not have a relationship with the Lord. Perhaps it even may be that many don't.[/quote]

i agree, and it is quite shameful. it is logical to assume that anyone who lives a worldly life does not have a good relationship w/ the Lord, if they have one at all. however, it is illogical to assume that if Catholics live such a life, it is somehow the Church's fault. it is w/ this assumption that i will always take offense.

for one, how is it logical to make those who do not live according to their faith the representatives of that faith? these people don't represent the Church b/c they do not even believe or practice as the Church does. the obvious representatives of any group are the ones who live by the tenets of the group.

secondly, the Church does everything in its power to lead, educate, and guide the faithful. popes are unceasingly prolific in their expounding upon catholicism. in every mass, which in the vast majority of diocese are offered [i][b]every day[/b][/i], the faithful hear three readings from the bible as well as a homily on how these relate to the catholic life. so many tools and resources are avialable on the internet and in libraries, the majority of which is freely given and easily obtained. priests and religious themselves are walking resources of information. therefore, in my opinion, it is utterly absurd to blame the Church for the personal ignorance of its members.

finally, i think that as an outside observer, you will find whatever you are looking for. if you are looking for catholics who do not live their faith, you will find them, just as you will find similarly negligent members in other denominations. but, if you are looking for orthodox catholics you can and will find them as well. they too are quite numerous, and are intent on representing the Church as she truly is: the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of Jesus Christ.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

There is a spiritual war, a spiritual struggle going on in our world today. Christians Catholic and non-Catholic alike are scrambling to "win" souls for Christ and the Church. Whenever someone makes a decision to join a group all of the other groups go "Wait! and But!".

Often times much of what Protestants have to say will make a great deal of sense from both a biblical and historic viewpoint. And often times the Church will also make a great deal of sense, both biblically and historically.

Who is it that we trust? Why?

[phatcatholic]

i don't think its the "who" we trust, but the "what." and that "what" is the doctrine, it is orthodoxy, it is right belief. afterall, you can find spirit-filled, holy people in ever denomination. you can find sinners in every one as well. the "who" is not what separates us. it is the doctrine, our difference in belief.

alot of people choose a church based on how nice the people are. but, hanging out w/ nice people is not what gets us to heaven. what gets us to heaven is how faithfully we live what we believe. that's why our beliefs are so important. we must believe what is True to be united with Truth one day. and when we have Truth, it is the sure foundation when everything else fails. a priest can be charged w/ sexual molestation, a bishop can be caught in a hit-and-run, a youth group leader can make unwanted advances upon children--AND I WILL NOT BE SCANDALIZED. why? b/c the misbehavior of those within the Church does not change the Truth, the foundation upon which the Church is built. the Church is Holy (one of the four marks of the Church) because its doctrine is protected from error by the Holy Spirit and b/c thousands (millions? billions?) of men and women are alive with Christ in heaven b/c they held fast to this doctrine. the aforementioned sinners will never change that.

so, as a newborn Christian, you must ask yourself, can i trust this doctrine? i think there are at least a couple of ways to answer this question:

[b]1. [/b][i]is the doctrine of my particular denomination consistent across the board? are there any specific doctrines that are internally inconsistent, or that contradict other doctrines. [/i]

in my opinion, Sola Scriptura is the end-all of red flags when it comes to this first test. i mean, Sola Scriptura is so internally inconsistent its almost funny:

--all truth is found in the bible, yet the mere premise of "scripture only" is not found there. one could even say that this premise is contradictory to what the bible says.
--the canon of the bible, which all protestants believe as true and inspired, is not in the bible.
--pastors stand up in front of their congregations and praise private interpretation, but, if they preach it to hard then the congregation will come up w/ their own interpretations and he will lose his authority as a pastor! so, pastors contradict themselves b/c in one hand they preach "every man for himself" but in the other hand they preach "but you better believe my interpretation."
--sola scriptura turns the defense of any doctrine formed off of that into a viscious cycle of circular reasoning.
--attached to this is the idea of personal inspiration by the Holy Spirit, but the mere presence of so many protestant denominations (who cares about the #, two is one too many) proves that this "personal inspiration" theory does not work.

so, consistency says alot about the validity of doctrine. if doctrine is Truth then it will not contradict itself. here is another test:

[b]2. [/b][i]what is the history behind my doctrine? is this what christians have always believed? or, are my beliefs inventions of a modern time?[/i]

as a catholic, i just don't understand how this test is not sincerely troublesome to every single protestant. they just seem okay w/ the fact that sola scriptura and sola fide DID NOT EXIST until the reformation. they also seem okay w/ the fact that the earliest recorded christian testimony reveals beliefs common only to the Catholic Church. that just doesn't make sense to me.

anyway, those are just two tests--and i'm sure there are many others--to determine if doctrine is trustworthy and TRUE. in the battle to win souls, it is critical that we fight for this Truth at all costs. and, as a newborn Christian, it is critical that Truth in Christ is the ultimate goal. afterall it is this Truth that saves us, and that allows us to save others.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

First, you mention "new-born Christian". Please define your term.

Next, What makes your second test trustworthy? Could it not be that throughout parts of history Christians were in an extreme minority and the Catholic Church was a pagan force in the world?

Finally, how do we know what history to trust?

Thank you,
Bro. Adam

[Brother Adam]

Please understand that I never mean any disrespect by my questions. I am merely trying to look at this from different angles.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Apr 3 2004, 02:04 PM'] First, you mention "new-born Christian". Please define your term. [/quote]
i was talking about the new Christian who's trust we are attempting to gain, the hypothetical person you are referring to in the following quote:
[quote]There is a spiritual war, a spiritual struggle going on in our world today. Christians Catholic and non-Catholic alike are scrambling to "win" souls for Christ and the Church. Whenever someone makes a decision to join a group all of the other groups go "Wait! and But!".[/quote]

now, to your second question:

[quote]Next, What makes your second test trustworthy? Could it not be that throughout parts of history Christians were in an extreme minority and the Catholic Church was a pagan force in the world? [/quote]
are you really saying that "true Christianity" was such a minority that there is [i][b]no evidence[/b][/i] of their existence? no record of them in ancient historical works and no allusion to them even in the testimonies of the "dominant, pagan" religion? one would expect that such a "minority" would at least be mentioned.

plus, there were many beliefs and sects circulating during the early years of the church that were a significant minority, yet they were still heard. the waldenses, the albigensians, the cathartists (sp?), arians, and so on. these were all significant minorities yet we know of them. even the Catholic Church was a minority for the first 300-400 years of its existence, but we have record of her beliefs from as early as [b]80 AD[/b]. all of this evidence says to me that minority status does not necessarily mean absence from the historical record. the idea that "true christianity" could totally disappear seems like some definite special-pleading if you ask me.

secondly, much work is needed to prove that the Catholic Church is "pagan." many assume that a similarity between a pagan belief or diety and a catholic belief automatically means that one came from the other. however, it takes much more then similarity to prove causality. furthermore, the similarities don't stop w/ the particularly "catholic" beliefs. pagan religions have trinities, man-Gods, Father Gods, and other beliefs that mirror basic christian beliefs. so, under this same logic, one must call belief in Christ and in the Trinity pagan concepts as well.

finally, what is "true christianity" if it does not include Catholicism? any definition that attempts to define christianity while at the same time excluding catholicism can only find its origin around 1500AD. plus, every catholic doctrine is found in the bible, at least implicitly, and there are NO catholic beliefs that are anti-biblical.

in my opinion, its just too unrealistic to try and substantiate such a theory.

[quote]Finally, how do we know what history to trust? [/quote]
well, for one i think you look at objective sources. read from historians who don't have an axe to grind. believe it or not, there are many protestant theologians and historians that are in agreement w/ the "catholic" view of history. i think this says alot.

secondly, i think much of history is in black in white, in the writings of the people from the day, for the whole world to read for themselves. no middle man or biased interpreter. just pure truth. its obvious from their very writings that the earliest christians believed, fought, bled, [i][b]gave their life[/b][/i] for the very doctrines that catholics hold dear. this is unavoidable, and is a huge testament to the truth that is found both in history and in the catholic church.

i hope this is an adequate response....

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

for further reading (i hope this isn't annoying):

[i]"The Church is Pagan"[/i]
[b]--[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp"]Is Catholicism Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://members.tripod.com/frjoe/bigot4.htm"]Is the Roman Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ377.HTM"]Is Catholicism Half-Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/otherihs.html"]Do Catholics Worship Another Jesus?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/christian.html"]Is the Catholic Church Christian?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan1.html"]Is the Blessed Trinity a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan2.html"]Is the Incarnation a Pagan Concept?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan3.html"]Is the Virgin Birth Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan4.html"]God's That Die?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan5.html"]Is Marian Devotion Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/marian12.html"]Mariolatry???[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan7.html"]Do Catholics Worship the Sun?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/pagan8.html"]Are Christmas and Easter Pagan?[/url]
--[url="http://www.knight.org/advent/cathen/03724b.htm"]Christmas[/url]
--[url="http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a99.htm"]Santa or Satan?: Reply to a Funny Fundamentalist [/url]
--[url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm"]Easter[/url]
--[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARY/HALLWEEN.HTM"]Halloween: Its Origins and Celebration[/url]
--[url="http://answers.org/Issues/Halloween.html"]What about Halloween?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/ex204.html"]Graven Images?[/url]
--[url="http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/5743/acts1025.html"]Pope Worship?[/url]
--[url="http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/sunbursts.htm"]Of Sunbursts, Baals, and Adventist Paranoia[/url][/b]

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

Thank you for your time and patience. You have been very informative and I have added everything here to a website for future reference:

[url="http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Scriptures-dialogue1.htm"]http://www.flyfreeministries.org/Scriptures-dialogue1.htm[/url]

[phatcatholic]

well, i suppose this concludes our discussion. i thank you for your time and patience as well. Good Luck to you and may God Bless You in your search for truth.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Brother Adam]

nostalgia

[phatcatholic]

haha, dope

[Selah]

great gilbo batman! Phatcatholic posted!