Pro-life: Does Life Magically Begin At Birth?

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1791264' date='Feb 25 2009, 11:37 AM']Personally I'm not a fan of graphic pictures of aborted babies either.
I think it goes against the dignity of the child.[/quote]

How does it go against the dignity of the child? It is reality. That is what an aborted child looks like. That is what sin looks like. That is what murder looks like.

We look at the crucifix. We even wear it around our necks. It is just as bloody as the aborted baby. It is just as terrible... it is just as heartbreaking. Does it offend the dignity of God? That is the reality of the crucifixtion.

Edited February 26, 2009 by TotusTuusMaria

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Paladin D' post='1791465' date='Feb 25 2009, 05:42 PM']I had a coworker change her pro-choice position ever since she saw a few photos of first trimester aborted babies on my cell phone. Many do not realize what they are truely supporting until they see it with their own eyes.[/quote]

Agreed. I am very involved with a sidewalk counseling ministry and the one thing we do different the other ministry doing the same thing in our city (God bless them for what they are doing) is that we use these little cards of an aborted baby in our packets. We have had seven saves. All of them have seen the picture and commented that it helped them to realize what they were doing.

[bonkers]

I don't think pro-life will ever win. The problem is it's infected with religion. People see the issue as Christian v secular, and most people consider themselves more secular than religious, and naturally, as with most things most people take one side or the other (regardless of whether or not they understand the issue).

I'm not totally against abortion, if a little girl is raped by her uncle she has right to terminate the pregnancy before that life inside her is at a stage its rights supercede the young girls. I'm not a moralist so I don't know what age that should be, but I think sometime before the 12th week and before the foetus can experience consciousness. I know you don't agree with me but please spare me your logic and reason, I've heard it all before.

I think abortions are pretty sad actually, but I think pro-lifers are doing so much damage, turning it into a spiritual war when clearly the majority rules and has determined that women have a right to make choices which impact on their lives emotionally, mentally, physically and financially. Why does the American public feel this way? Regardless, whatever the pro-life movement is doing to change the hearts and minds of the American public, it is failing miserably. No one wants to accept responsibility for this terrible PR disaster, and pro-lifers continue to employ the same old tactics such as name calling (i.e. "baby killers", "murderers") trying to bully the enemy into submission without actually realising how worthless and counter-productive these methods are. Some people try to justify this by saying the truth needs to be told, but calling overweight Jane a "fatty" isn't likely to motivate her to start doing exercise.

Ironmonk makes an interesting point, debates make people cling harder to their beliefs. This is also true for Catholics and pro-lifers. No one really wants to the see the issue from the other sides perspective, because they naturally assume they see it correctly and the other sides sees it incorrectly, so there is no possibility to empathise with the opponent. Actually, empathising with the opponent may cause a sudden change of heart, but most people are not willing to empathise with the opponent when they see him as an enemy.

[Nihil Obstat]

I want to clarify my comment, when I said that I think it goes against the dignity of the child.
Yes, it is reality, and yes, it will change some people's minds. (As an aside, I do think it has a legitimate place in the pro life side... but that's not my point.)
What I'm talking about are instances when it seems like the picture is being exploited for shock value. In that case it's not the life of the child that's being respected, rather the death of the child is being used. Yes, it's being used for a good purpose, but as we repeat fairly often, the ends do not justify the means.
The use of these pictures should be done very sensitively, in the same way that we honour any adult dead.

I'm not saying that these pictures shouldn't be allowed, I just think that the respect for the violated life should be very clear, not only to the people who create the display, but also to the people viewing it.

[Winchester]

[quote name='bonkers' post='1791795' date='Feb 26 2009, 07:25 AM']I'm not totally against abortion, if a little girl is raped by her uncle she has right to terminate the pregnancy before that life inside her is at a stage its rights supercede the young girls. I'm not a moralist so I don't know what age that should be, but I think sometime before the 12th week and before the foetus can experience consciousness. I know you don't agree with me but please spare me your logic and reason, I've heard it all before.[/quote]
First, very thoughtful post.

I respect the above position. It's closer to the Ubermensch position, which is where I wish our opponents would go, instead of their weak-minded emotional arguments. It is where they will go, eventually. They will then begin directly killing those who oppose them. I don't know how long it will take, but it will eventually happen. I think it will take many years.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='princessgianna' post='1791027' date='Feb 24 2009, 11:11 PM']pro choice people are hurt people! Mostly women whowere being totally mistreated by a man.[/quote]
Lol. Men are responsible for all evil!

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1791834' date='Feb 26 2009, 11:46 AM']What I'm talking about are instances when it seems like the picture is being exploited for shock value. In that case it's not the life of the child that's being respected, rather the death of the child is being used. Yes, it's being used for a good purpose, but as we repeat fairly often, the ends do not justify the means.

The use of these pictures should be done very sensitively, in the same way that we honour any adult dead.[/quote]

I see your point... can't say I agree with you. I don't know anyone that uses those pictures that is not shocked themselves at what they are showing... they all have an obvious love and respect for the unborn.

You must be thinking of a particular instance...care to name an instance where the images are used for just shock value?

[Madame Vengier]

That's an awesome shirt. This is actually the best angle (IMO) to take when having conversations about the pro-life issue. I find this really pushes people into the corner. At the same time, you have to be prepared for the shock of the reaction. I have encountered people who, when pushed into a corner, will finally break down and admit they do believe it's a baby but they are still okay with abortion because a woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body. They end up re-hashing the same tired, irrational defense of abortion. I once pushed a girl into a corner about partial-birth abortion and she flat-out admitted that even though she personally thinks it's horrible, she still supports it because she felt that some women don't have another option. (!!!) When I ended the conversation by reminding her that she just admitted to infanticide, she AGREED with me and re-stated that sometimes there is no other option. I had to pick my jaw up off the floor.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1792322' date='Feb 27 2009, 05:30 AM']I see your point... can't say I agree with you. I don't know anyone that uses those pictures that is not shocked themselves at what they are showing... they all have an obvious love and respect for the unborn.

You must be thinking of a particular instance...care to name an instance where the images are used for just shock value?[/quote]
Actually, it's not that I think that there's often a lack of respect... I see the pro-life people, and I know that it could almost never be the case.
It's just that it often looks like the respect is absent, and that's just nearly as damaging in and of itself.
If we give the (mistaken) impression that the respect for the child is lacking in that particular area, regardless of whether or not its true, it undermines our entire platform, and has the potential to disillusion those who may be on the fence.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1792367' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:40 AM']Actually, it's not that I think that there's often a lack of respect... I see the pro-life people, and I know that it could almost never be the case.
It's just that it often looks like the respect is absent, and that's just nearly as damaging in and of itself.
If we give the (mistaken) impression that the respect for the child is lacking in that particular area, regardless of whether or not its true, it undermines our entire platform, and has the potential to disillusion those who may be on the fence.[/quote]

Interesting... I don't agree in the least, but... interesting.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1792369' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:41 AM']Interesting... I don't agree in the least, but... interesting.[/quote]
...and I tried to word it so well.

Basically I'm saying that it's not that we [b]do[/b] lack the respect, it's that, to someone on the outside, I think that it has the potential to [b]appear[/b] that use of these sorts of advertisements reflects a lack of respect, or disordered intentions.

[TotusTuusMaria]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1792370' date='Feb 27 2009, 10:44 AM'] ...and I tried to word it so well.[/quote]



[quote]Basically I'm saying that it's not that we [b]do[/b] lack the respect, it's that, to someone on the outside, I think that it has the potential to [b]appear[/b] that use of these sorts of advertisements reflects a lack of respect, or disordered intentions.[/quote]

In this matter, I don't think it matters how we appear to others because we are not showing what we are showing to gain respect or to look good. That isn't our intention. We are doing it to raise awareness about what abortion actually is. We show the pictures to help and educate women who are making these decisions, and sometimes it is this picture which we show which will finally convince her to choose life. If the staff at the abortion clinic are turned off by me showing it to her, who cares... it about her and her baby. Not what the woman inside scheduling abortions thinks of me at that moment. If I lose brownie points for showing it... oh well. It is reality and the reasons for showing it far outweight the reasons you supply not to.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='TotusTuusMaria' post='1792380' date='Feb 27 2009, 09:10 AM']



In this matter, I don't think it matters how we appear to others because we are not showing what we are showing to gain respect or to look good. That isn't our intention. We are doing it to raise awareness about what abortion actually is. We show the pictures to help and educate women who are making these decisions, and sometimes it is this picture which we show which will finally convince her to choose life. If the staff at the abortion clinic are turned off by me showing it to her, who cares... it about her and her baby. Not what the woman inside scheduling abortions thinks of me at that moment. If I lose brownie points for showing it... oh well. It is reality and the reasons for showing it far outweight the reasons you supply not to.[/quote]
Of course it doesn't matter to us how we look, but it matters to the people we try to convince. We lose credibility if we're seen as hypocrites, regardless of whether or not we actually are.
Like I said, there certainly is a role for those types of displays. I won't argue with that.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Madame Vengier' post='1792329' date='Feb 27 2009, 08:18 AM']That's an awesome shirt. This is actually the best angle (IMO) to take when having conversations about the pro-life issue. I find this really pushes people into the corner. At the same time, you have to be prepared for the shock of the reaction. I have encountered people who, when pushed into a corner, will finally break down and admit they do believe it's a baby but they are still okay with abortion because a woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body. They end up re-hashing the same tired, irrational defense of abortion. I once pushed a girl into a corner about partial-birth abortion and she flat-out admitted that even though she personally thinks it's horrible, she still supports it because she felt that some women don't have another option. (!!!) When I ended the conversation by reminding her that she just admitted to infanticide, she AGREED with me and re-stated that sometimes there is no other option. I had to pick my jaw up off the floor.[/quote]


So many people today lack a moral compass.

Looking back on the conversation that I had with the guy that didn't care about killing a baby, it's like their "moral compass" is at the south pole spinning. Their moral compass is 'always being right'... which I think falls under the foolish pride category. I wish I could go back and ask him "Since you know that abortion is killing a baby, then why is killing anyone wrong?".

Sad times.


God Bless!
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1791493' date='Feb 25 2009, 06:05 PM']O ! O ! Can we all send this one to our politicians???????????????

What size do you think Nancy and Joe wear???

[url="http://www.cafepress.com/CatholicSwag.33640604"]http://www.cafepress.com/CatholicSwag.33640604[/url][/quote]

That is a great idea!