Eucherist Debate On The Bb

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 20 2004, 03:36 PM'] Your Truth and my Truth are two different things. Like you said you've been around awhile, you've had the truth revealed to you, if you deny it thats up to you. Since you've had a long time to study and debate, you know what us Catholics believe so your attacking. I don't think that right, it is uncharitable and inconcederate. It's one thing to ask then to attack. [/quote]
I do recall saying "this is nothing personal".

I'm not attacking, being rude, inconsiderate, or anything of the sort.

[KennC]

[quote]... even while Christ still walked the earth in his glorified body.[/quote]
Hmm, and I have come to the conclusion that those who departed from Christ and later denied the Eucharist were them.

[KennC]

again twice???

Edited March 20, 2004 by KennC

[Livin_the_MASS]

Your not attacking me your attacking Christ's True Presence in the Eucharist!!!!!!!!

I don't care about me!!!!!!!!!


[quote]I'm not attacking you, I'm telling you the truth. Rarely do I read anything when someone only copies and pastes something. I did not say there was anything wrong with it.[/quote]

[Carson Weber]

[i]The Eucharist[/i] by Carson Weber

Orthodox and Catholic Christians accept God’s word when He said what the Eucharist was. Scripture is clear on this issue, so are the Early Christians. Jesus offered us this Blessed Sacrament at the Last Supper,

Matthew 26:26-28
“Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples and said, ‘Take, eat; this is my body.’ And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying ‘Drink of it, all of you; for this is my blood of the covenant, which I tell you is poured out for many, for the forgiveness of sin.’”

Mark 14:22-24
“And as they were eating, he took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them, and said, ‘Take, this my body.’ And he took cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank it. And he said to them, ‘This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.’”

Luke 22:19-20
“And he took bread, and when he had given thanks he broke it and gave it to them, saying, ‘This is my body which is given up for you. Do this in remembrance of me.’ And likewise the cup after supper, saying, ‘This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.’”

Just by reading these verses it seems pretty clear what Jesus meant. Jesus did not say, “The wine and bread are symbols of my blood and body”; He didn’t even say, “My body and blood are a part of this wine and bread”. No, Jesus made it clear, the bread and the wine is His body and blood. Jesus even prophesized this gift in his Bread of Life Discourse:

John 6:48-51
“I am the bread of life. Your Fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread, which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.”

We find that Jesus told us long before the Last Supper that we are to eat the bread that is his flesh. Many people will doubt and say the Jesus was again speaking metaphorically/symbolically. Even when Jesus spoke these words there were those who doubted and Jesus reiterated the point that we are to eat his flesh…

John 6:52-56
“The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, ‘How can this man give us his flash to eat?’ So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. ‘“

They questioned Jesus, because they could not believe what they heard, they could not believe that Jesus said to them that they were to eat His flesh. So, when the Jews questioned, Jesus answered with clarifying remarks. In these remarks He did not say, “What I mean is that my body is symbolically the bread you are to eat”, or even “My body resides within the bread”.

No, Jesus was clear in his remarks, “Truly, Truly” he says, “unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood.” Jesus referred directly to eating His flesh not once, but [u]four times[/u] He mentions that we are supposed to eat his flesh. He made His point so clear that those present, those that were his disciples were shocked, and could not understand…

John 6: 60
“Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’”

Jesus didn’t back down even then. He didn’t say “Wait, wait, you still do not understand, let me again tell you that I am not being literal…”, no he rebuked them for not believing his words, for not believing what he says, for accepting that they were to eat His flesh and drink His blood. (1)

Jesus never backed down from this issue, the Eucharist which we take is His blood and flesh. The disciples and the Jews were having a tough time with this concept, if Jesus’ was being symbolic they would not have had a tough time, but these disciples and the Jews heard the meaning to be literal. Whenever Jesus was misunderstood before (and later) He fully explained himself and his teachings, always. (2) But he didn’t explain himself in this situation; He didn’t because those that heard his words fully comprehended what He said. We must eat of His flesh and drink of his blood.

After Jesus’ crucifixion two disciples were walking to the village of Emmaus. They came upon Jesus and did not recognize Him. Jesus joined them in their Journey, and during the trip gave them a tremendous bible study…. (3)

Luke 24:13-15, 27
“That day two of them were going to a village named Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem, and talking with each other about all the things that had happened. While they were talking and discussing together, Jesus himself drew near and went with them…And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.”

Yet these disciples still did not know this person was Jesus. They did not experience Him through His bible study, or by walking along with them. Even though they did not know Him they invited, insisted, that He spends the evening with them. Jesus finally consented; at dinner that night He blessed the bread, broke, and when the disciples took the bread they saw Jesus… (4)

Luke 24:30-31
“When he was at the table with them, he took the bread and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to them. And their eyes were opened and they recognized him…”

It wasn’t walking and talking with Jesus that enabled them to see Him; it wasn’t through a study of scripture that the disciples saw Jesus, it wasn’t committing the good act of inviting a stranger to stay with them; it was through the blessed bread, which is His flesh, that the disciples saw Jesus. How could they see Jesus in the bread if he is not in it? Jesus said, “this is my body.”

As with all-important things, St. Paul instructs on the real presence of the bread and wine from the Last Supper. He knew the importance, he knew the truth was that it is Jesus, and he knew that the reverence we must have for it. (5)

1 Corinthians 11:23-26
“Whoever, therefore, eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord.”

Now why, if Jesus was being symbolic, would we be profaning the body and blood of the Lord? If the bread and wine were not the flesh and blood of Christ, how could we profane against him in eating of natural food? The only way we could is if the bread and wine is (“Truly, truly”) His flesh and blood. Then, and only then, does it makes sense that eating such a meal in an unworthy manner would be profaning the Lord.

This is all so clear that the early Christians did not even doubt it.

Ignatius of Antioch
“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible.” (6)

Ignatius of Antioch
“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes.” (7)

Justin Martyr
“We call this food Eucharist…the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus.” (8)

Irenaeus
“The bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood…” (9)

Irenaeus
“If the Lord were from other than the Father , how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (10)

Irenaeus
“He acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as his own blood, from which he bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of creation) he affirmed to be his own body, from which he gives increase to our bodies.” (11)

Scripture states it, faithful early Christians did not doubt it, nor should we. The Eucharist is the flesh and blood of our Lord, Christ Jesus.

(1) John 6:61-66
(2) e.g Matthew 13:13-16; Mark 4:34
(3) Luke 24:13-27
(4) Luke 24:28-31
(5) Paul even comments that the reason so many are sick, and some have even died, is that those people have taken the Eucharist in an unworthy manner. (1 Corinthians 11:30)
(6) Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Romans, 7:3, ~A.D. 110.
(7) Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, 6:2-7:1, ~A.D. 110.
(8) Justin Martyr, First Apology, 66, ~A.D. 151.
(9) Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4:18 ~A.D. 200.
(10) ibid., 4:33-32
(11) ibid., 5:2

Attached to this post is a Handout I created on the Eucharist about four years ago when I did a Bible Study on it at Texas A&M University as an undergraduate.

[Jericho923]

[url="http://www.catholicapologetics.org"]Catholic apologetics[/url]

I meet often with Bob Schilh the author of that website...his work is really amazing and absolutely scriptural. check it out, you will find most important topics of Cath doctrine.

We have writings from many saints during the first 500 years of the Church...there were about 4 councils before the year 500...including the first council in Jerusalem, which is in the Acts of the Apostles...and even in Paul's letters (specially to the Corinthians which was actually written before the gospels) he seeks correction from error in respect to the Eucharist.
There are even non-catholic sources that talk about the Christians being "canibals" for believing literary the literary teaching of Jesus in John 6.

One of the saddest passges in all the gospels is John 6:66...some disciples walk away never to walk with Jesus again...why would Jesus let them go in error?
They found the Truth to hard to believe! Jesus says it in about 5 different ways and they understood...Eat my body, it is bread from heaven! but they could not believe...why would Jesus let them walk away in error? they got it, they just lacked the faith!

It does not take a scholar to find the reasoning in this powerful passage. St. Thomas Aquinas defines Love as the union between the Lover and the beloved...what better (actually what other way) could Jesus choose to be complete united to us, than by being ingested...sounds weird, but hey! they walked away because it was too weird...those who believed remained at his side and upon this faith the Church was built.

i was very anti-Catholic and struggled inmensely with the Eucharist, and other issues....but there is no other way to see it...not without having to justify it with a twist or stretch...once i realized that i had no where else to go, but to the Church that has kept that faith and believe for 2000 years.
i pray that you will find peace in faith and the totality of the Spirit's joy!

[Brother Adam]

*shakes head*

So I'm not allowed to disagree with your belief huh?

Seasoned phatmassers here have been able to rationally talk with me and others who disagree with the Eucharist for years without getting upset as you are getting.

What kind of backround do you have with non-Catholic Christians?

[Brother Adam]

NOW THAT'S WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT

[jmjtina]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 20 2004, 03:41 PM'] Your not attacking me your attacking Christ's True Presence in the Eucharist!!!!!!!!

I don't care about me!!!!!!!!!


[/quote]
Jason, Bro Adam isn't attacking you (us) nor the true presence in the Eucharist. He is [b]sincerely[/b] here to learn.

Bro. Adam has been here long enough for the original phatmassers to know he means no disrespect. Trust us, please, he is truly seeking.

peace and God Bless.

and Carson, that piece of writing rocks!
it's going in my quotes section!

[Jericho923]

hey Bro, do not let our inability to communicate in the love which we are called to receive, embrace and imitate, affect your process of asking questions or inquiring about faith...you are a blessing to us, in many ways. So hold us to the highest standards even when it comes to defending our faith.
God bless

[Jericho923]

that is sweet Carson...just what brought me back to the Church!

[KennC]

[quote]St. Thomas Aquinas defines Love as the union between the Lover and the beloved...what better (actually what other way) could Jesus choose to be complete united to us, than by being ingested...sounds weird, but hey! they walked away because it was too weird...[/quote]
I was struggling with the Eucharist shortly after I became Catholic and after weeks of Prayer one early moring Mass the words Consume me as I Consume you kept rolling over and over in my head. Then I went for Comunion and it hit me as I reached out my hand, Lord as I consume all of you, consume all of me and thats when the Sacrifice of the Mass took on a personal meaning for me. I watched one day as the wine and bread was being brought up the centre isle and thought thats me, and I lay my life on the alter with Him, to Him.

[Livin_the_MASS]

I've been working with them for years. If you've done your study why ask, is what I am saying.

Why post something like that if you have questioned it before?

Are you seeking Truth. I don't think so, why?

On your post you said "the truth" are you saying what you posted is truth?

First off it's not, and if you think you know the truth and your convicted in the article that you posted, your here to argue. Not for help!

[quote]shakes head*

So I'm not allowed to disagree with your belief huh?

Seasoned phatmassers here have been able to rationally talk with me and others who disagree with the Eucharist for years without getting upset as you are getting.

What kind of backround do you have with non-Catholic Christians? [/quote]

Edited March 20, 2004 by Jason

[jmjtina]

charity above all things. If you don't have charity, then it's all for not.

[Jericho923]

OUr Lady of Peace pray for us

[Dave]

Jason, please stop! If you've been taught a certain thing for a long time, it really takes time to understand, appreciate, and accept something that is at odds with that. Such is the case with Brother Adam. Perfect understanding and acceptance of a doctrine don't come overnight. Please respect that.

Personally, I think an apology from you to Brother Adam would be in order too.

Edited March 20, 2004 by Dave

[littleflower+JMJ]

[quote name='Jason' date='Mar 20 2004, 03:57 PM'] I've been working with them for years. If you've done your study why ask, is what I am saying.

Why post something like that if you have questioned it before?

Are you seeking Truth. I don't think so, why?

On your post you said "the truth" are you saying what you posted is truth?

First off it's not, and if you think you know the truth and your convicted in the article that you posted, your here to argue. Not for help!

[/quote]
jason, please, please, please, bro. adam is truly being honest wtih himself and with us and as catholics we need to show charity and love to our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Bro. Adam has been studying extensivly the catholic faith and has come up wtih many subjects that he needs help with on understanding, etc. because its all new to him.

please be patient, for bro. adam is doing wonderful on his searching and findings and has really, as a result, taught us so much in return.

this thread is not an attack, its a plea and request for understanding, that we as catholics have an obligation to share in christian love and charity.

God bless,
flowery
+JMJ

[Carson Weber]

Jason, let's hold off on judgments as to the interior intentions of others, okay? These sort of hissy fits make me irate, and you don't want to see me irate. :irate:

Adam, I encourage you to read this article by Dave Armstrong:

[url="http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.1/god.htm"]http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.1/god.htm[/url]

He defends the Real Presence quite well. You'll see.

[Jericho923]

[quote]hey Bro, do not let our inability to communicate in the love which we are called to receive, embrace and imitate, affect your process of asking questions or inquiring about faith...you are a blessing to us, in many ways. So hold us to the highest standards even when it comes to defending our faith.
[/quote]

please!

[Livin_the_MASS]

I'm not trying to be uncharitable,

but isn't it funny he tells me he has done his studies on the subject.

That tells me he know what we believe! So if he knows what he believes and what we believe is that post not an attack.

I want to help on Phatmass, I thank God for the website, but in a case like that it's time to draw the sword.

If I'm wrong I'll say I'm sorry and leave. But I think, infact I know because I've been watching his posts to try to help him that he plays with words. This shouldn't be a place of arguing. But love, charity, and kindness.

I may be wrong but considering the circumstances ( how long hes been here ) he told he posted the truth (which its not) it was an attack.

I want to stand up for the truth. So if he done his studies my question is why the post?

God Bless Jason