Slappo Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Also, for Mary as Mediatrix of all graces: Do not all graces flow from the cross, both OT graces and NT? Was not the grace of the cross won by the sacrifice of Christ? Was not Christ born of the Blessed Virgin? Did she therefore not [b]at least[/b] indirectly mediate all grace, even the grace between Christ's divine nature and human nature (which I don't know exactly what you mean by that)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='Slappo' post='1793327' date='Feb 28 2009, 12:36 AM']Also, for Mary as Mediatrix of all graces: Do not all graces flow from the cross, both OT graces and NT? Was not the grace of the cross won by the sacrifice of Christ? Was not Christ born of the Blessed Virgin? Did she therefore not [b]at least[/b] indirectly mediate all grace, even the grace between Christ's divine nature and human nature (which I don't know exactly what you mean by that)?[/quote] Do not all graces flow from the cross, both OT graces and NT? Yes since the Son of God's sacrifice on the Cross is the source of all salvation beyond Time and Place. Christ is Eternity, therefore He pours out His Merciful Grace, which comes from the Cross of Eternal Salvation, on persons throughout all Time and Place. JPII Encyclical Letter, Ecclesia de Eucharistia: "all that Christ is—all that he did and suffered for all men—participates in the divine eternity, and so transcends all times”. Was not the grace of the cross won by the sacrifice of Christ? Yes since according to all Justice only a Divine Person could win it back for us namely Jesus Christ. Was not Christ born of the Blessed Virgin? Yes, the conception of Jesus occurred by the power of the Holy Spirit. Yet the Son of God truly incarnated Himself. God the Son, by His own power incarnated Himself. Mary merely participated in this role. Her 'yes' did not enact the Incarnation and Redemption, for she is not equal to God. She by the unique grace of the Immaculate Conception (merited by Christ, who is Eternity and whose grace is poured out on persons throughout all Time and all Place, before she even made the choice of being His mother) said yes by the unique grace of Christ (merited on the Cross before she said yes, for He is Eternity). The Immaculate Conception is not only an event occuring in the space of a moment. The IC is a continuing gift to the Virgin Mary, which continuously preserved her from sin, and it is a continuing gift to the Church. Mary was entirely unable to sin. It is not the case that she was able to sin, but happened to choose not to sin. For then our salvation would depend, not on Christ alone, but on the Virgin Mary's decision. Rather, she was made unable to sin by her IC. She was also unable to say 'no' to God at any time, including at the time of the Incarnation. Mary's fiat was made inevitable by her IC. Still, Mary retained her free will, but she could not say 'no' to God and could not sin, just as the souls in Heaven and in Purgatory cannot sin but retain free will. She was created at her IC such that free will and God's will were in complete harmony, of necessity. Did she therefore not [b]at least[/b] indirectly mediate all grace, even the grace between Christ's divine nature and human nature (which I don't know exactly what you mean by that)? No she did not, not even indirectly. If that were the case then salvation would depend on the choice of a mere human, and such is not the case for salvation solely depends on Jesus Christ. Therefore by her unique gift of the Immaculate Conception and her participatory role in salvation she is a constellation or in better words culmination of humanity's desire to be saved and humanity's acceptance to be saved, yet even humanity's desire and choice to be saved is a grace of God, for any good act is affected by Christ's merited grace before, during and after the same act. And such is the nature of the unique grace of Mary's Immaculate Conception, the unique grace par excellance ever. Edited February 28, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='kafka' post='1792588' date='Feb 27 2009, 05:02 PM']There are many more dogmas, doctrines and pious opinions/theological speculations concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary than merely five. Some people in that above movement think the so-called co-redemptrix dogma as the fifth and final Marian dogma. This is completely false and erroneous. Plus this movement has its roots in a false visionary named Ida Peerdman. Needless to say for most of you yet: Disregard and avoid this movement.[/quote] Whoah Kafka, don't judge Ida Peerdman. Her bishop approved the apparitions and that is enough for us to say that they are authentic at this time. Don't be judging a woman who'm you've never meant. I personally believe in the messages, but at the same time, I can see why the Holy See would wait a while before making this a Dogma. We must trust that Our Mother will be honored when the fullness of time has arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1793534' date='Feb 28 2009, 09:59 AM']Whoah Kafka, don't judge Ida Peerdman. Her bishop approved the apparitions and that is enough for us to say that they are authentic at this time. Don't be judging a woman who'm you've never meant. I personally believe in the messages, but at the same time, I can see why the Holy See would wait a while before making this a Dogma. We must trust that Our Mother will be honored when the fullness of time has arrived.[/quote] I have every right to judge Ida Peerdman's private revelations and present my opinion. It seems that it is necessary since she seems to have a large following and her supposed messages are entangled with the true doctrine of Mary as co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix. After having viewed some of her messages at the website promoting her here: [url="http://www.ladyofallnations.org/index.htm"]http://www.ladyofallnations.org/index.htm[/url] it seems that it is the Faithful who should be petitioning the Holy See for a condemnation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) [quote name='kafka' post='1793664' date='Feb 28 2009, 12:41 PM']I have every right to judge Ida Peerdman's private revelations and present my opinion.[/quote] I agree, because – even when the Church gives its approval to a particular private revelation – no one is required to accept the message contained within that revelation. A private revelation can add nothing of any substance to the deposit of faith. Edited February 28, 2009 by Apotheoun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hérisson Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Several years ago, our bishop mentioned the idea of this dogma to John Paul IInd. His answer was something like this (I translate) : " Well you can talk to Ratzinger about that, but he's not in favour of that...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793667' date='Feb 28 2009, 03:51 PM']I agree, because – even when the Church gives its approval to a particular private revelation – no one is required to accept the message contained within that revelation. A private revelation can add nothing of any substance to the deposit of faith.[/quote] Rather, it does not add anything at all, not just "nothing of any substance" - the wording here is confusing as if it could add something to the deposit, just not of great importance. Private revelations simply have no affect on the Deposit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Brother Adam' post='1793741' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:18 PM']Rather, it does not add anything at all, not just "nothing of any substance" - the wording here is confusing as if it could add something to the deposit, just not of great importance. Private revelations simply have no affect on the Deposit.[/quote] I do not know if I agree with that viewpoint, since -- at least in the Roman Rite -- some of these private revelations have been raised to the altar (i.e., they have been given a liturgical commemoration), and that seems to be adding something to the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793744' date='Feb 28 2009, 06:21 PM']I do not know if I agree with that viewpoint, since -- at least in the Roman Rite -- some of these private revelations have been raised to the altar (i.e., they have been given a liturgical commemoration), and that seems to be adding something to the faith.[/quote] No, they're used to strengthen the deposit of faith. For example, Fatima, and other marian apparitions have been strengthening the deposit of faith and helping the faithful deal with issues that appear in their time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1793757' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:28 PM']No, they're used to strengthen the deposit of faith. For example, Fatima, and other marian apparitions have been strengthening the deposit of faith and helping the faithful deal with issues that appear in their time.[/quote] Since the liturgy is the lived experience of the deposit of faith, it follows that to add some of these private revelations to the liturgical cycle -- although not adding something substantive to the faith -- is adding something at the level of piety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 Yo so what about our brother and sister saints. If you think that adding private revelations to the liturgy is wrong, then what about adding saints. If approved apparitions add something, how do saints not add something to the deposit of faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1793772' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:40 PM']Yo so what about our brother and sister saints. If you think that adding private revelations to the liturgy is wrong, then what about adding saints. If approved apparitions add something, how do saints not add something to the deposit of faith?[/quote] Where did I say that it was wrong to add private revelations to the liturgy? What I said is that private revelations do not add anything substantive to the faith, but that they do add something at the level of piety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saintwannabe 777 Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='Apotheoun' post='1793774' date='Feb 28 2009, 06:44 PM']Where did I say that it was wrong to add private revelations to the liturgy? What I said is that private revelations do not add anything substantive to the faith, but that they do add something at the level of piety.[/quote] Oh iight man, my bad for misinterpreting you I just thought since you mentioned it that it kind of bothered you a bit. My apologies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 [quote name='saintwannabe 777' post='1793777' date='Feb 28 2009, 02:46 PM']Oh iight man, my bad for misinterpreting you I just thought since you mentioned it that it kind of bothered you a bit. My apologies[/quote] No need to apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kafka Posted February 28, 2009 Share Posted February 28, 2009 (edited) In my opinion private revelation does not add anything at all to the Deposit of Faith, rather what it often does is help clarify what is found implicitly in the Deposit, or perhaps what is found explicitly yet the weakness of our minds cannot see these truths, because of the remnants of original sin. So private revelations often act like a crutch or a pair of eye-glasses. God is Love so he cant help but be generous and continue to give us even more gifts even though the Canon of Revelation is closed. The problem with false private revelations which are often under the influence of fallen angels is that they often distorts truths in subtle ways, so as to possibly lead those weaker in the Faith astray. These subtle distortions run throughout Ida Peerdman's messages, such as not calling Mary Our Lady, but 'the Lady', that the Co-Redemptrix, Mediatrix, Advocatrix doctrine is the Fifth and Final Marian Dogma and will supposedly usher an era of peace, that 'The Lady of Nations apparitions are the last and final apparitions of our Mother to the nations of this world." There are other bizarre and absurd claims in her messages, including predictions which have never come true, etc. Even the image of "The Lady of the Nations" looks weird, and is in contradiction to the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. There is no sign of humility, there are wounds on her hands, she is in front of a cross. It is as if she is supplanting her Divine Son instead of assisting Him. It is interesting how false private revelations/apparitions there are in the world today. Its a true sign that we live in severely evil times that God would permit the fallen angels to have so much influence. On the other hand there are more than a few true private revelations/apparitions, which have greatly benefited the Faithful. We truly live in interesting times. Edited February 28, 2009 by kafka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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