MithLuin Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 As you are well aware, this news item was originally reported as 'Excommunication lifted on Catholic bishop and Holocaust denier' The Cardinal was trying to clarify. The majority of American Catholics have never heard of the SSPX (seriously - they haven't). They [i]really[/i] don't know what this is all about. Whether or not you like the cardinal, he has every right to point out that Williamson is a fringe element, not your average Catholic bishop. He's doing damage control (or attempting to, anyway). He could be more charitable about it, but this is [i]not[/i] about some historical detail, like the number of casualties at the battle of Agincourt. This is about the relationship between Christians and Jews. The SSPX can say that none of their members are anti-Semites, but the proof is in the pudding. If it smells like a rat....chances are there's a rat, rapid cleaning up of the website aside. And yes, I realize people will level that charge without knowing anything. But saying 'it didn't happen' is kinda like the people who say 9-11 was an inside job, planned by Bush to create an excuse to go to war. In other words...there is an underlying motivation to making such an outrageous claim. I wonder what that might be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='MithLuin' post='1797749' date='Mar 4 2009, 11:27 PM']As you are well aware, this news item was originally reported as 'Excommunication lifted on Catholic bishop and Holocaust denier' The Cardinal was trying to clarify. The majority of American Catholics have never heard of the SSPX (seriously - they haven't). They [i]really[/i] don't know what this is all about. Whether or not you like the cardinal, he has every right to point out that Williamson is a fringe element, not your average Catholic bishop. He's doing damage control (or attempting to, anyway). He could be more charitable about it, but this is [i]not[/i] about some historical detail, like the number of casualties at the battle of Agincourt. This is about the relationship between Christians and Jews. The SSPX can say that none of their members are anti-Semites, but the proof is in the pudding. If it smells like a rat....chances are there's a rat, rapid cleaning up of the website aside. And yes, I realize people will level that charge without knowing anything. But saying 'it didn't happen' is kinda like the people who say 9-11 was an inside job, planned by Bush to create an excuse to go to war. In other words...there is an underlying motivation to making such an outrageous claim. I wonder what that might be?[/quote] Something I've noticed, tell me I'm crazy, you love to demonize the SSPX. Williamson is Catholic, you where incorrect, if the Cardinal is really telling people Williamson is not Catholic, well thats just not true. Edited March 5, 2009 by KnightofChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 My main concern is with just the following bolded part: "Holocaust deniers like Williamson will find no sympathetic ear or place of refuge in the Catholic Church, of which he is not —[b] and may never become[/b] — a member," As the Church is the fullness of faith, we must work in bringing about the salvation of souls. We cannot make such statements. If this is a correct statement, ignoring the rest of the article, it is very hard to take in a charitable light toward the Cardinal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lil Red Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 +J.M.J.+ i'm not accusing anyone of this, but i'd like to remind everyone of one of the guidelines: [quote]Catholic vs Catholic Debate A post or comment that results in doctrinal debates that might cause scandal among the faithful. *Effective immediately, any negative criticism of religious or the current Magisterium will result in deletion, and a warning from the moderators. This includes but is not limited to criticism of the Novus Ordo mass and/or our Holy Father.[/quote] that includes 'liberal' bishops/cardinals, no matter how distasteful we may find them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 that would be a correct statement about any non-Catholic (+Williamson is not a non-Catholic); I think you're reading that wrong, he is saying "may not ever become" as in "might not ever become" not "cannot ever become"... "may not" can mean either, and the "might not" interpretation seems to fit here. there is NEVER ANY EXCUSE for uncharity and slander, even if you're trying to do damage control. this is an absolutely sinful act, to call someone who is a Catholic in communion with the Church (and a Bishop, though not allowed to excercise that office) a non-Catholic. that's is uncharity; he is saying to his brother bishop in anger and out of fear of public relations "Racca" "you fool!"; and therefore, he is liable to the fires of gehenna. his underlying influence is not anti-semitism; it's anti-Zionism mostly, and that's a GOOD motivation for anything, because Zionism is a bad bad bad thing for the world. he's wrong about the holocaust, but he's right to say that the victims of the holocaust do not amount to a replacement-Messiah for the Jewish people (who still must accept Jesus Christ as their Messiah to fulfill the covenant promised to their ancestors), and they do not amount to an excuse to take land from the Palestinean people. that's the type of motivation he has, which is not anti-semitism. he is reactionary against the concept that the Jews have a parallel seperate covenant and are not bound by the new covenant of Jesus Christ, their true Messiah whose sacrifice is the one and only sacrifice which takes away the sins of the world. one thing that struck me about this article is how the holocaust is labelled "unique" in history. that's an insult to the Armenians, to the Rwandans, to the dissidents in the Soviet Union, to the dissidents in Communist Russia; actually, it's even disprespectful to Christ himself. THIS is why, in Williamson's heartfelt and honest apology, he echoed the sentiment of Pope Benedict XVI: "As the Holy Father has said, every act of injust violence against one man hurts all mankind." -+Williamson the holocaust is not better or worse than the other atrocities of history; it is not better or worse than those atrocities which have had less people killed (Armenians, Rwandans) or those which have had more people killed (Soviets, Chinese). the holocaust is ANOTHER terrible evil, not the end-all-be-all of terrible evils. what +Williamson said in his last statement is "yes, I came to believe this, I am not an historian so I could be wrong, but whether it was 300,000, 6 million, or 6 trillion, it was a terrible evil" here's his last statement: [url="http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/declaration-holy-father-and-my-superior.html"]http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2009/02/d...y-superior.html[/url] anyway, Cardinal Mahoney is incorrect and being slanderous by accusing the bishop of being a non-Catholic. you cannot sacrifice truth to try to calm public outrage, you are always and everywhere required to do service to the truth because your God is Truth itself; every untrue statement (especially one which incorrectly calls someone outside of the body of Christ who is within it) harms Christ himself. [quote name='Lil Red' post='1797891' date='Mar 5 2009, 01:46 AM']+J.M.J.+ i'm not accusing anyone of this, but i'd like to remind everyone of one of the guidelines: that includes 'liberal' bishops/cardinals, no matter how distasteful we may find them.[/quote] what happens when one bishop criticizes another? can we defend the bishop if he's being unjustly criticized? I'm trying to hold back, and Cardinal Mahoney is truly a Cardinal Prince of the Church and I respect his office, but he may not say that a bishop whose excommunication has been lifted by the Pope himself is not a Catholic. I think that when Cardinals attack other Cardinals or other Bishops unjustly, we may come to the defense of the bishop being unjustly criticized; whether it be Cardinal Kaspar's criticism of Cardinal Hoyos or Cardinal Mahoney's criticism of Bishop Williamson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionseeker Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 my first thought was ... can you say pot calling kettle black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldenchild17 Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 This is good I needed something to laugh about today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaya Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 wow! trying to wrap my head around this definitely gave me a headache (really!). when i first heard about the whole Williamson affair, and what Williamson had said, it made me, i don't know, sad, angry. where then did most of my family go? a vacation trip from which they simply never came back? more and more catholics here are getting dissatisfied with the Pope, more and more want (or do) leave the Church, since the introduction of the latin mass until now, and this whole thing has just topped it all off. and i would be lying if i said all this didn't concern me. but then again, when the Holy Father clarified, accusations camae that he was too slow etc, and here in the radio some said that his nazi side was showing, because he had grown up in nazi germany and had been in the Hitler youth. which i find unfair and a weak argument, because being a german boy in nazi germany, well... had he been an adult who consented to the regime, it would be different, but a young boy that he was back then? i mean he was 11 when the war ended... it just makes me sad and angry that there are still people who are Holocaust deniers today (apart from Hamas & Co), and that nazism and anti-semitism is on the rise, but i had to kick myself and say, hey, it is not because one bishop denies the Shoah that the Church hates Jews, and certainly i am still welcome there. but it is a very touchy subjects, one that goes to (my) the core. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted March 5, 2009 Author Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='Chaya' post='1797971' date='Mar 5 2009, 07:06 AM']wow! trying to wrap my head around this definitely gave me a headache (really!). when i first heard about the whole Williamson affair, and what Williamson had said, it made me, i don't know, sad, angry. where then did most of my family go? a vacation trip from which they simply never came back? more and more catholics here are getting dissatisfied with the Pope, more and more want (or do) leave the Church, since the introduction of the latin mass until now, and this whole thing has just topped it all off. and i would be lying if i said all this didn't concern me. but then again, when the Holy Father clarified, accusations camae that he was too slow etc, and here in the radio some said that his nazi side was showing, because he had grown up in nazi germany and had been in the Hitler youth. which i find unfair and a weak argument, because being a german boy in nazi germany, well... had he been an adult who consented to the regime, it would be different, but a young boy that he was back then? i mean he was 11 when the war ended... it just makes me sad and angry that there are still people who are Holocaust deniers today (apart from Hamas & Co), and that nazism and anti-semitism is on the rise, but i had to kick myself and say, hey, it is not because one bishop denies the Shoah that the Church hates Jews, and certainly i am still welcome there. but it is a very touchy subjects, one that goes to (my) the core.[/quote] My inlaws ' cousins were polish catholics and they took that "vacation to eternity" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1797497' date='Mar 4 2009, 03:40 PM']Williamson is a baptised catholic. Even if you are excommunicated you are still catholic, so I don't see how C. Mahoney can say this?[/quote] Mother Angelica pointed out some years ago that the good Cardinal is a poor theologian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HisChildForever Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 While I am no personal fan of Williamson, these comments were a bit much. [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1797773' date='Mar 4 2009, 10:40 PM']Something I've noticed, tell me I'm crazy, you love to demonize the SSPX.[/quote] With all due respect and in defense of Mith, you yourself are not completely without bias. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doe-jo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 ha! I would rather go learn Catholicism from Williamson that Mahoney. Williamson is a good theologian. However a bad historian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doe-jo Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='KnightofChrist' post='1797499' date='Mar 4 2009, 03:45 PM']This while Mahoney is under federal investigation? [url="http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mahony29-2009jan29,0,6232753.story"]http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ma...0,6232753.story[/url] almost funny...[/quote] Denying the holocaust is a greater evil than covering up child molestations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaya Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1798025' date='Mar 5 2009, 04:33 PM']My inlaws ' cousins were polish catholics and they took that "vacation to eternity" as well. [/quote] i am so sorry! *hugs* that's the thing: denying the holocaust and the gas chambers not only hurts me, Jews, but also the families of all the nuns, monks, clergy, catholics and other people murdered there. it is like, we're in this all together, and it hurts all of us. *hugs* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnightofChrist Posted March 5, 2009 Share Posted March 5, 2009 [quote name='HisChildForever' post='1798087' date='Mar 5 2009, 12:42 PM']While I am no personal fan of Williamson, these comments were a bit much. With all due respect and in defense of Mith, you yourself are not completely without bias.[/quote] Yeap, but I dont let it deny peoples Catholicism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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