Brazilian "rape Row" Sparks Excommunications

[puellapaschalis]

[quote name='kafka' post='1799049' date='Mar 6 2009, 09:11 PM']another disturbing trend to consider as a sort of corollary to this story is the fact that over the past century the average age of menarche has generally declined throughout the world. In some areas it is more pronounced than others.[/quote]

I understand that girls now get their periods earlier in their life as a result of better nutrition and other similar factors that allow the body to mature faster (physically).

[MissyP89]

[quote name='Didacus' post='1798900' date='Mar 6 2009, 10:35 AM']Do you regret being disabled or being born?[/quote]

It's not a matter of regret; rather, it's just the situation God has given me. I work with the cards I'm dealt.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that I believe children born as early as I was should be aborted, or that I think disabled children would have been better off aborted. You are absolutely incorrect. As I said in the original post, I'm not going to take a stance on this case. I was only stating a fact that if the twins had been delivered at that point, there are significant risks. That doesn't mean they won't be perfectly healthy; they could, and that would be a blessing.

Edited March 7, 2009 by MissyP89

[CatherineM]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1799144' date='Mar 6 2009, 04:05 PM']I understand that girls now get their periods earlier in their life as a result of better nutrition and other similar factors that allow the body to mature faster (physically).[/quote]

There are some scientists who think it is also because of artificial hormones in meat, milk and the like. The women in my family start around age 10, and have for several generations, so sometimes it is just genetic.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1799287' date='Mar 6 2009, 06:11 PM']It's not a matter of regret; rather, it's just the situation God has given me. I work with the cards I'm dealt.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that I believe children born as early as I was should be aborted, or that I think disabled children would have been better off aborted. You are absolutely incorrect. As I said in the original post, I'm not going to take a stance on this case. I was only stating a fact that if the twins had been delivered at that point, there are significant risks. That doesn't mean they won't be perfectly healthy; they could, and that would be a blessing.[/quote]
Don't worry. He's trying to prove a point, that even though your life had particula challenges, you certainly are glad that you had the chance to live it.

[kafka]

[quote name='puellapaschalis' post='1799144' date='Mar 6 2009, 05:05 PM']I understand that girls now get their periods earlier in their life as a result of better nutrition and other similar factors that allow the body to mature faster (physically).[/quote]


[quote name='CatherineM' post='1799309' date='Mar 6 2009, 08:08 PM']There are some scientists who think it is also because of artificial hormones in meat, milk and the like. The women in my family start around age 10, and have for several generations, so sometimes it is just genetic.[/quote]
My understanding, based on the little I've read is that the average age was stable for most of history around 13 to 14 years old, up until modern times when it began to decrease and now even a significant number of nine and ten year olds experience it (enough to lower the average considerably) which seems odd to me, like something is off. It could be a combination of things such as the environment, processed foods and artificial hormone injection into animal products, genetics, evolution, perhaps even the immense sinfulness in the world today somehow affecting the nature of the body itself.

Something to consider though. The average age of puberty in boys, and menarche in girls has lowered while at the same time the average age of marriage for young men and woman has increased to the mid twenties or so (at least in the U.S.) so there is this gap of many years where men and woman are sexually active yet not married.

Edited March 7, 2009 by kafka

[MissyP89]

Just an update: Now that the Vatican has voiced their support for the Brazilian bishop, I have seen many people say that they are now leaving the Church or their RCIA programs for what they see to be "lack of compassion" from the bishop. Please pray that God's grace changes their hearts.

On another note, the citation for excommunication also includes a clause that the penalty can be lessened or even non-existent under certain circumstances, including a person's will being "under duress". Do you think this situation qualifies?

Edited March 8, 2009 by MissyP89

[CatherineM]

If this was my child, I'm sure I'd be under some intense duress. It wouldn't cause me to take the course they did, but we can't expect people to think clearly when confronted with something so extreme that we truthfully don't know how we would handle it. I think this bishop is showing the compassion of a good parent. If people leave the church or RCIA over this, then they were in either for the wrong reasons to begin with.

[Didacus]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1799287' date='Mar 6 2009, 08:11 PM']It's not a matter of regret; rather, it's just the situation God has given me. I work with the cards I'm dealt.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be implying that I believe children born as early as I was should be aborted, or that I think disabled children would have been better off aborted. You are absolutely incorrect. As I said in the original post, I'm not going to take a stance on this case. I was only stating a fact that if the twins had been delivered at that point, there are significant risks. That doesn't mean they won't be perfectly healthy; they could, and that would be a blessing.[/quote]

No, not at all. My reference was to Saint Augustine's comments that he has met all sorts of people in the world, and that all people he has met regretted their miseries, but none regretted being born.

Even people who commit suicide don't truly regret the life they life, they simply regret the pain they live with and wish to make it end (in many cases that is).

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1799969' date='Mar 7 2009, 07:46 PM']On another note, the citation for excommunication also includes a clause that the penalty can be lessened or even non-existent under certain circumstances, including a person's will being "under duress". Do you think this situation qualifies?[/quote]
For a nine year old girl, I seriously doubt that all the conditions for mortal sin are present... I assume it's more or less the same when we're talking about specific excommunications.
If you're under duress, than full consent is lessened or nonexistent, meaning that mortal sin *may not have* been committed, which translates to still being in good standing with the Church... as far as I understand it.

[MissyP89]

I was more talking about the mother, but this applies too.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='MissyP89' post='1800298' date='Mar 8 2009, 01:17 AM']I was more talking about the mother, but this applies too. [/quote]
My mistake.
Well the mother was likely pressured too. By doctors, peers, other family...

[Nunsense]

I doubt that anyone even gave the young girl a choice in the matter. How will she feel years from now about the murder of her unborn children? Yes, excommunication was necessary - they all need to understand what they have done wrong, to the babies and to this young girl as well.

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1798943' date='Mar 6 2009, 10:00 AM']What happened to the rapist?[/quote]

According to [url="http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Vatican+defends+excommunication+Brazilian+girl+abortion/1370174/story.html"]this article from the Ottowa Citizen:[/url]
[i]
Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly sexually abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.[/i]

Fifteen years is no long enough for this man...

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='rhetoricfemme' post='1802715' date='Mar 10 2009, 03:07 PM']According to [url="http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Vatican+defends+excommunication+Brazilian+girl+abortion/1370174/story.html"]this article from the Ottowa Citizen:[/url]
[i]
Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly sexually abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.[/i]

Fifteen years is no long enough for this man...[/quote]
This is one of the reasons I in good conscience can believe in the selective use of the death penalty, but that is for a different thread.

[Hassan]

[quote name='RandomProddy' post='1798943' date='Mar 6 2009, 01:00 PM']What happened to the rapist?[/quote]


Apparently he just needs to go to confession.

The little girl was not simply to young to birth this children, her uterus was to small to contain them. If this was not an instance where abortion could be permitted I cannot imagain what would be.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' post='1800462' date='Mar 8 2009, 01:48 PM']My mistake.
Well the mother was likely pressured too. By doctors, peers, other family...[/quote]


I didn't see any information saying she was pressured, if she was I suppose that some doctors get all hung up on their nine year old patiens dying when their uterus is physically unable to contain the twins growing inside her.

I guess they should have given her some morphine and a rosary

[Socrates]

It is Church law that procuring an abortion, or even supporting abortion, entails excommunication. There's nothing new here - just a public clarification of the law regarding a highly-publicized case.

And I don't know where the hell people are getting the idea the Church is cool with rape. Obviously, an unrepentant rapist can't receive communion either. Pure nonsense.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Hassan' post='1802795' date='Mar 10 2009, 04:39 PM']Apparently he just needs to go to confession.

The little girl was not simply to young to birth this children, her uterus was to small to contain them. If this was not an instance where abortion could be permitted I cannot imagain what would be.[/quote]
He needs to go to jail for the rest of his unnatural life, although anyone who has sex with a 9 year old should be put to death.

[Hassan]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' post='1803109' date='Mar 10 2009, 08:20 PM']He needs to go to jail for the rest of his unnatural life, although anyone who has sex with a 9 year old should be put to death.[/quote]


Speaking of which, I thought these sorts of threads wern't allowed

I guess the problem people have is the apparent lack of mercy. The girl could not survive having these twins. The doctors performed the abortion to save her life and they, along with her mother were excommunicated. They are formerly excommunicated the gentleman apparently needs to go to confession.

[MithLuin]

Small woman giving birth to large baby = potentially deadly (for both mother and baby), particularly in an area where health care is iffy. [url="http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/beautiful/birth.html"]Brief overview of the problem[/url]


In a situation like this, there is unlikely to be a happy ending, no matter what decision is made. If a small nine year old girl carried twins to term...it would quite possibly kill her. This is a situation where the threat is serious, and the options to save her will likely be deadly to the children. Inducing early is possible, but....

Basically, there are a million abortions performed on healthy adult women (who became pregnant consensually) carrying healthy fetuses with access to good health care in this country every year. I see no need to single out this girl's family for their decision - the excommunication is automatic, so it happens regardless of whether or not the bishop says anything.